Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Bronson (band)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete – no reliable sources to back up claims of notability. - KrakatoaKatie 05:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Bronson (band)

Charles Bronson (band) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Article makes no assertion of notability past its unverified claims. Doesn't appear to meet the guidelines at WP:MUSIC, a cursory search for reliable sources revealed none. I prodded the article on August 17 but it was removed August 21 (diff), just so folks know. IvoShandor 21:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Close and instead tag for reliable sources. This band, if their discography is as extensive as shown, should be able to have some sources. This page has never been tagged. J-stan TalkContribs 22:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • You'd think the prod would have revealed that. A bunch of albums doesn't mean a band is notable. I can produce a bunch of albums, doesn't make me notable. If they are notable, then it should be no problem for reliable sources to be produced during this nomination. Closing it just maintains the status quo. As it stands there doesn't seem to be anything notable about this band other than the assertion they made music. IvoShandor 22:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I came across this page because it was linked from DeKalb, Illinois, stating they were from there. A search of the archives for the DeKalb newspaper, The Daily Chronicle, back to 2000 showed exactly zero stories, same number of trivial mentions, zero. Now if this band was notable, I would think the local newspaper would have mentioned them once in seven years. IvoShandor 22:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Tag for reliable sources. I believe this passes WP:MUSIC: 1. I know I've read about them in Maximum RocknRoll or HeartattaCk (probably both) but I've long since ditched all of my back issues and they don't have online archives; 2. I know they're toured the Midwest U.S. (but again, I know of no sources for this, other than the band's MySpace account); 3. multiple releases on Lengua Armada and Slap A Ham (probably the two largest hardcore/powerviolence labels); 4. drummer was in MK-ULTRA and Los Crudos; 5. one of the best-known powerviolence bands (and probably the best-known from Dekalb). I'll admit that some of these reasons are a tad iffy, but considered together I think demonstrates sufficient notability. The article just needs references. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wyatt Riot (talk • contribs).
I wouldn't call a couple fan zines reliable sources. All that stuff in the article is unverified, I suppose you can tag at as refs needed, but if the prod didn't get anyone's attention, the tag won't either. How many articles have that tag now? Not really effective at all and we shall never know if this belongs here. Delete, someone can rewrite it if they are truly notable, unreferenced cruft like this has no place in an encyclopedia though. IvoShandor 18:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
As far as MRR and HC go, they're probably the most reliable sources you're going to get for a hardcore band. It's not like you're going to find scholarly resources as WP:Reliable sources suggests or even local newspaper articles for what was essentially an underground band which avoided mainsteam exposure (yet were still widely influential). Even the folks who drew up WP:MUSIC admit that "What constitutes a "published work" is deliberately broad." Wyatt Riot 20:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
That seems reasonable to me. I tagged the article and put a couple citation needed tags in there, I doubt it will have much effect though. IvoShandor 21:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Do the sources on the Los Crudos article confirm that any members were in Charles Bronson, if they do that fact should be cited in the Bronson article, otherwise it is still just an unsourced assertion that doesn't do anything to establish the notability of the band Charles Bronson.IvoShandor 18:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The members are cited from a book We Owe You Nothing: Punk Planet: The Collected Interviews. I don't know if it mentions Charles Bronson, but it does seem to meet the standard for notability set at WP:MUSIC 6. dissolvetalk 19:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • For Los Crudos, yes. But the assertion in the Bronson article is just that, an assertion, it has no source. So the issue of verifiability remains. Los Crudos' notability doesn't necessarily establish the notability of Charles Bronson, unless what the article about Bronson says can be verified. Not sure how long this will be open but I can look in a library for the book. I am more interested in keeping content that belongs here than just seeing it deleted but if notability cannot be established it should be deleted. IvoShandor 19:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: If you're looking specifically for the Charles Bronson/Los Crudos/MK-ULTRA connection, there's an interview on the MK-ULTRA entry where it's mentioned that Ebro was in all three bands. I'm sure there's more, since googling this or this turns up quite a few pages, although a lot of them appear to link to MySpace blogs (currently blacklisted as sources) and record reviews from non-notable sites. As an aside, however, isn't the policy on reliable sources meant to apply mainly to facts that are likely to be challenged? Does anyone really doubt that the Ebro Virumbrales from one Chicago hardcore is actually the same Ebro Virumbrales from a different Chicago hardcore band? I mean, I absolutely agree that this article needs reliable and verifiable references, but that seems like such a small issue to be focusing on. Wyatt Riot 22:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and added the ref. It's in French, but I can find no subsitute in English. Wyatt Riot 23:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Going from zero to some references isn't a small issue, while you may think it is small, if it is going to establish notablility it is highly important. Without any sources to support the assertions then it ought be deleted. Who the hell is Ebro Virumbrales? Name drops may be enough to establish notability within the circle of fans that like this type of music but generally isn't acceptable for the broader project. If the only claim to notability is, this guy is now in X band, shouldn't that be sourced? If nothing else, to avoid future AfDs? IvoShandor 23:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand what you're saying. I just think that there are some claims so obvious that references are unnecessary, like names of band members. Pretend for a second that Cream was an otherwise unknown or underground band. They don't get play on mainstream radio and the local papers won't touch them. Despite this fact, they would certainly merit inclusion on Wikipedia simply due to having otherwise notable members. But I think it's nit-picking in a way to demand that someone prove that it's the Eric Clapton or Ginger Baker playing in this underground band. I think it also creates a slippery slope, because where do you draw the line? Should there be a reference backing up the names of band members, or the genre of music? Ebro Virumbrales is a person with a marginally unusual name listed on both the Charles Bronson and Los Crudos pages, which (to me) seems like it should be sufficient to satisfy WP:MUSIC criteria. (And to answer your question, Ebro is kind of a Ginger Baker of the Chicago-area or midwest hardcore scenes. He's been in quite a few influential bands, and he's currently in a hardcore super-group, Ruination.)
But at the same time (and to play devil's advocate with myself), I do realize that if it's one of the few claims towards notability for this particular page, then it's not that out of line to demand the reference. I hope that the link I inserted earlier provides enough proof. I'll try to scare up some more references when I get the time. Wyatt Riot 07:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Sources are key to establishing notability, very true. Just because someone says X was in Y doesn't make it so. If the statement "Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted" isn't true then it shouldn't be included on every single page that is arrived at from a red link. IvoShandor 21:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I mean, this article has been on wiki since December 2004, I would think if there were some sources out there, someone would have added them by now. IvoShandor 21:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as the previous poster said, those who know this band best have not been able to satisfy the most basic requirements - I think we can assume that no one ever will. Statements made above - "I remember them" - are worthless to this discussion. The burden is on those who would retain this page, and the burden has not been sustained. MarkinBoston 19:53, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per MarkinBoston. --Coppertwig 17:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, doesn't seem notable to me at all.--Kranar drogin 23:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.