Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Byington Vineyard

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. John254 01:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Byington Vineyard

Byington Vineyard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable winery with very little (if any) distribution outside of its own region that doesn't pass WP:CORP. The few google news hits are only about local wine tastings and weddings. These is no international or main stream coverage in Decanter or Wine Spectator which is not surprising considering the limited distribution. The vast majority of Wikipedia readers will never see these wines much less hear about them. Even the vineyards own website only shows only very limited local press coverage. AgneCheese/Wine 07:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep well known in the Bay area and appears to meet WP:CORP. Vineyard also brings up over 11,000 Google hits and 16,000 Yahoo hits. [1] Most of which are unique. Gateman1997 07:12, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
If you add quotes to the name and subtract the Wiki mirrors the number is [far less] and reflect the same trivial notes about tastings and weddings in the same limited regional scope. Again it is not surprising consider the very limited distribution of the wine. Only folks around the vineyard and to a lesser extent the West Coast will ever have an opportunity to hear about the wine. AgneCheese/Wine 07:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
4300+ is also a very large number. Plus the area you claim is small encompasses at minimum 30 million people. Seems relevant to me. Gateman1997 07:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Do consider the worldwide wikipedia readership as well as the worldwide wine community in pondering this question. What, apart from just being a winery, sets Byington Vineyard apart from your local fine restaurant like [North Star] in San Francisco which receives even more local press attention and has a two star Michelin Guide rating? Despite that there is North Star Restaurant article and for good reasons--the same types of reasons why this article should be deleted. AgneCheese/Wine 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
How about the fact that Wineries are about 1000x rarer than a resturant on the average ;) Gateman1997 07:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually there is far more wineries then two star rated restaurants. AgneCheese/Wine 07:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you seriously underestimate the number of wineries, and I can't help but jump at your number 1000 x. In Germany (which I happen to have some viticultural familiarity with and where they're good at publishing statistics) the 1999 viticultural survey recorded 68 598 vineyard owners, or more than 800 vineyard owners per million capita. The number of wineries is probably significantly lower, since some small growers send their grape to local winemaking cooperatives, but will still run into the 10 000s. At 10 000-30 000 wineries we would have around 120-370 per million capita. Despite this, Germany imports 4 x as much wine as it exports, so in countries like France and Italy the density of vineyard owners and wineries is even higher, and they are not exactly rare in relation to good restaurants. Not even if you count every McDonald's and hot dog stand is there 120.000-370.000 restaurants per million capita anywhere! In Europe outside France, there seems to be about 1-2 Michelin-starred restaurants per million capita. My point (beside picking on the number 1000 x) is that in many parts of the world, there are a lot of small, reasonably compentent wineries that are appreciated locally but totally lack notability on a national or transnational scale. On a global scale, this kind of winery is nowhere near a rare phenomenon. I believe that the point Agne is trying to make by invoking the notability clause is that randomly having 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 of such wineries being represented by an article in Wikipedia next to, among others, Château Margaux, Schloss Johannisberg, E & J Gallo Winery and Penfolds runs the risk of making us look generally ridiculous and less an encyclopedia with relevant wine-related content. Tomas e 17:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete No claims to notability, no multiple reliable, reputible, notable third party coverage in any press, book, or news coverage. Or in simpler terms, it has not received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject.

Google search that Agane gave us shows no press articles on this winery for the first five pages. All I find are press release announcements of wine tasting or listings and discription of the winery in a buisness listing section of the online paper.

I only found ONE link [2] that has this winery mentioned along with four or five other local winerys. The problem is per WP policy, this is not significant coverage...and there certainly isn't by multiple sources.

This is a trivial or incidental coverage of the winery by a secondary source and is not sufficient to establish notability. Has this winery won any national or international awards for it's wine that can be verified? Are they well known in the winery world? Have multiple winery magazines written full length articles about just this winery? What makes this winery notable? I fail to find anything and I looked for over 30 minutes I didn't look hard enough. Thank you Eliz for your tireless efforts! --Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 08:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep I have changed my mind. Eliz has proven notability beyond a shadow of a doubt --Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 09:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment Please see the references I added the article, their Pinot Noir won an award, as evidenced by one of the article titles. ~Eliz81(C) 08:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I hate shooting you down but your link is misleading. First, you need to weed out all the links that just use Vineyard or Byington...doing so cleans things up a bit [4]. Also, the San Jose Mercury News article isn't viewable however I will conceed it may constitue a coverage IF the entire article was about them. The San Francisco Chronicle article gives them a fairly small mention as part of a trip the report took...again, trivial at best. Another article just mentions them with a bunch of other local winerys but doesn't make any more note of them....again...not sufficient coverage. The Virginian paper mention was from 1995... Over ten years between one newspaper article and another newspaper article does not notability make. Oh, the SFC does not have any full articles on just this winery...I've looked. All are in passing, are event announcements, business listings...trivial. --Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 08:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for not providing a better Google news link, merely trying to show where I got my 5 references from. There are 3 San Jose Mercury News articles (which one are you referring to?), all 5 articles have the winery in the title, I fail to see how this doesn't constitute significant coverage? We've established notability with fewer references before. I can add more. ~Eliz81(C) 08:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The SFC does not have any full articles on just this winery. You put down the first reference as from them but it's from the mercury...not the SFC. Also, "best of show at the 11th annual Santa Cruz County County Fair Commercial Wine Judging"... a county fair judging? Not really an national or international award. There are many local businesses that have almost daily articles in the most distributed local paper in the state however that does not defer notability. Multiple independent sources. The SJMN articles are from one source. The SFC articles are all trivial or in passing. I'm just not seeing notability. I'm sorry.--Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 08:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you following the links for the references in the article that I added, or looking at the Google news search? All of the articles I linked are fully about the winery, including the Chronicle, and not passing mentions. If you are unable to view the content of the articles, is there any way I can send you the contents without violating copyright? ~Eliz81(C) 08:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ref #1 is [5]. It is from the THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE so I take back my statement about them not having a full article on the winery. It's newspaper gimic that they send a report our to a different random local winery every so often so this may be a questionable coverage.

Ref #2 is [6]. from the San Jose Mercury News (and being San Jose and San Fransico are so close, this is still just local coverage) about buying more land and upgrading the facilities.

Ref #3 is [7] and is from 1990. all about the opening of the winery from the the San Jose Mercury News. again.

Ref #4 is [8]. Coverage from 1995 which is basically an opinion column article about a wine tasting a report had after they stopped at a local liquior store where the winery owner was handing out samples of his wine. Not sure this is notable coverage.

Ref #5 is [9] from 1994 about winning a county fair prize... I've won best of show for salsa at a county fair, but it doesn't make me or my salsa notable. Again the San Jose Mercury News is there.

  • Thats because the media didn't write about your salsa. If they did, then you would have one media reference and be on the road to notability. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Actually, the local media did but personally I believe local county fair awards are silly to base notability on. State fairs, however, are a different story. --Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 21:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

All in all, I don't see notability. We have the San Jose Mercury News covering a local winery alot. We have the SFC covering a randomly selected LOCAL winery and reporting on the wine and service. We have a reporter from virginia stopping by a liquior store for a wine tasting and writing about it...from 1995. Nothing here seems notable. (EDIT: Note to self, autosigning bots are more trouble than they are worth)--Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 09:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to investigate the links. I've added 2 more references to the article, with cited claims establishing notability from 2 different sources (one unfortunately is still the Mercury News, but it's a reliable source anyway.) I think the total number of references and the depth of coverage (there are still more I can add, but I'm getting tired) establish notability well, since it can be on a local level. ~Eliz81(C) 09:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I don't see how lots of local newspaper coverage from the SJMN, one questionable SFC article, and another questionable wine tasting article constitued significant coverage. The article may be kept based on these articles, but I just can't change my initial thoughts that this is just a non-notable winery with some local coverage and has a random article writen over 12 years ago about a wine tasting. I'm sorry but I just disagree. All this means is the winery could be buying newspaper coverage from the SJMN (which does happen), though they are spaced out over years. I don't believe a few local newspaper stories makes something notable... I'm not changing my mind on that however we can agree to disagree. At least you did make an effort to improve the article. I've changed my mind. --Brian(view my history)/(How am I doing?) 09:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as passes notability Elmao 09:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as notable and verifiable. Coverage by an area newspaper is still coverage, local coverage would be more like those local shopping papers, which would also still be coverage. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 21:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.