Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bum Wine Wednesday

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Johnleemk | Talk 16:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bum Wine Wednesday

Doesn't seem to be a widespread phenomenon; Google turns up no pages whatsoever. Sounds like a hoax. Tim Pierce 20:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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[edit] Votes

• Delete As the author of the bum wine article (well, stub, for the moment), I am pretty sure that the attested holiday is utter runnish. Delete with a Thunderbird chaser. BD2412 T 21:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as unverifiable or hoax. PJM 21:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete probabale hoax/vanity only mention in wikipedia entries, (a reverted edit for Willamette University and other wikipedia section by the same person (158.104.72.33)) -- SusanLarson ^{(User Talk, New talk, Contribs)} 08:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC). Also changed to Strong delete for obstinate meatpuppet/sockpuppetry -- SusanLarson ^{(User Talk, New talk, Contribs)} 05:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  • I assure you that this is not "meatpuppet/sockpuppetry." It is true that BWW is being primarily supported by the Willamette Student body, but each student is acting on their own accord. Also, look to the fact that people from other schools have even stated that they know of BWW.158.104.76.254 07:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Recognized (by members of the college) traditions at universities are generally fair subject matter for articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.72.16 (talk • contribs)
• Keep There seems to be little to no evidence that the Bum Wine Wednesday article is a hoax and as a result I see no justification for its deletion.158.104.76.254 10:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep This is a recognized tradition at Willamette University. As for your comment about the IP being the same as an edit to Willamette University, our University only has a certain number of external IP addresses thus many users operate under the same IP for Wikipedia Ahimsa52 10:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable outside a small University community.--nixie 10:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - Why is this a cause to delete the article? Almost all wikipedia articles about universities and colleges feature segments that are not "notable" outside the instition's own community. Your vote delivers two messages: 1) BWW is a tradition, just not a "notable" tradition. this contradicts the reason earlier stated for the deletion of this article, because BWW is, in fact, not a "hoax." 2) If BWW is "non-notable outside a small University community," then the easy answer would be to move the article to the Willamette University article; but your reasoning does not justify the deletion of this article. with respect. 158.104.76.254 10:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and to the chorus of comments below, have a look at Wikipedia's policies. Personal testimonials don't help to keep the article. Respectable newspaper coverage - that would be a different matter. Durova 14:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC) Strong delete for obstinate meatpuppet/sockpuppetry. Durova 00:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Please see my response to "meatpuppet/sockpuppetry" (above)158.104.76.254 10:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Objections base on Wikipedia's policies are unfounded. The only complaint that could concievably be levied is that of original research. Especially now that Willamette's Residence Life department is patrolling the internet and busting students for what they post it is understandable that there is no news coverage. Things that shape the lives of more than a fifteen hundred college kids at Willamette and countless more at other universities mentioned below, add UCSC to the list should be apart of wikipedia. When was the last time you saw beer pong or kings cup in the New York Times. Newspaper coverage is overrated. Long live BWW 158.104.76.84 19:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Keep BWW is a popular event and those who have not heard of it directly or participated in it soon will. For consistency, if wikipedia is going to delete this, it must delete every reference to all traditions, because not all traditions are practiced by everyone. 158.104.76.9 20:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC) (Seconded by "Patstaboo")
• Delete, only Google hit other than Wikipedia is bumwine.com. Looks like advertising. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Every argument has fallen. This is not advertisement. This is not a hoax. This is verified when you consider the nearly 150 people who have supported it. This is becoming of exponentially greater cultural importance. This is a way to help the homeless by advocating charitable actions. Long live Bum Wine Wednesday. Patstaboo 02:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. -- JJay 21:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep I feel that this event has spread to enough schools to justify an independent page, though it is in need of expansion. I would like to reiterate that this is not meat-puppetry, each of these people is a active member in the BWW community. If this page is merged into Willamette, with the understanding that when further evidenced expansion occurs it will again be moved to an independent page I would change my opinion to Delete. Uthren 17:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete sock infested nn holiday.  Grue  21:59, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - no google, no claims to notoriety, and, whilst its nice to see so many meat puppets running around, perhaps they should try to assert its popularity somewhere else first, and then, once its popular, then go to Wikipedia. That's the way around that you're meant to go. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 06:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

• Comment. As a current student at Willamette, I can attest that it is praticed, though in fairly low numbers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.78.74 (talk • contribs)
• Comment - I think this is a very importan cultural aspect for west coast college students. This entry should be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.125.120 (talk • contribs)
• Comment Are you guys kidding me? This is a big deal at willamette and i hear at other colleges as well. I think its ridiculous that you would limit something just because you don't partake in it. I think this would say a lot about wikipedia and what types of speech are censored. BWW recognizes those that are less fortunate. If wikipedia takes this away, it is saying "impoverished people are not worth our consideration and there is nothing that we, yuppy computer owning, internet surfing people, can relate to them on." Shame on you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.9 (talk • contribs) 07:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment - As someone who has participated in bum wine wednesday I can firmly say that it is no hoax. Furthermore, the Wikipedia entry has increased the numbers of participants dramatically. Many of us have this page as our facebook webpages. Additionally, even if only at Willamette, it is still of cultural importance. Only two more days to BWW and you know I'll be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.84 (talk • contribs)
• Comment - Honestly what kind of encyclopedia nazi's are these people, is this not a site to inform people on all topics all over the world. just because you dont participate in or you frown down upon something does not make it cease to exist. Maybe there is no huge cultural significance behind bum wine wednesday that shapes the greater american society, but does that mean that there is not a group of people in this world who every wednesday drink a bottle of bum wine? yeah there are, your stuck up snobbery doesn't change that. so do me a favor next time you feel important about yourself for doing some lame tradition you participate in, just realize i very easily could think your customs are a hoax. dont think for a second that just because main stream society may participate as well that it justifies your actions, hiding among a group is for cowards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.77.77 (talk • contribs)

  Comment I think your stance would be more well received if, instead of calling people cowards, snobs, and Nazis, you responded to this nomination for deletion according to Wikipedia's own deletion policy. It might also be useful to read through what Wikipedia is not. Also, when adding content here on this page, please sign your comments by adding four tildes (~~~~) at the end - the Wikipedia software will automatically convert this into a timestamped signature, which makes the conversation much easier to follow. Cheers. --PeruvianLlama^(spit) 08:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

• Comment - Wikipedia must survive as the pan, collecting the tiny pieces of gold that are in eternal passage through Google's sieve. Gold dust is not a hoax! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.72.16 (talk • contribs)
• Comment - I too oppose the deletion of the Bum Wine Wednesday article for a multitude of reasons. It must be realized that BWW is in no way a "hoax." BWW is a growing tradition at Willamette University and is spreading quickly. The tradition first began in the smaller WU dorms and houses but is now a wednesday night tradition that is practiced in almost all dorms and now, frats. BWW is also a drinking tradition with a heart. A major part of being a "Bum Wino" is giving to the needy. after buying bum wine at a local store (or what have you) participants are encouraged to give their change to the homeless. Further more, because of the Bum Wine Wednesday article more students are becoming aware of the tradition and as a result it is growing more (for example, students are now starting up "BWW Chapters" in Michigan, Montana and other schools around the northwest. I assure you, this is no "hoax." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.254 (talk • contribs)
• Comment - I would like to address the "Author" of the Bum Wine article. Your article, while entertaining, does not make you an expert on college drinking habits. Simply because you know what kind of brands are considered "Bum Wine" does not mean that you are an expert in Willamette University's drinking traditions. The fact is that BWW is a Willamette University drinking tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.254 (talk • contribs)
• Comment - I plan on expanding the article later this month. Please do not delete this stub. Ahimsa52 10:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment It would seem that the only reason that people can "justify" deleting this article is because they cannot find references to it anywhere else. This, of course, is to be expected. I find it very hard to believe that every "certifiable" tradition has a web-site in its honer or is referenced in articles and journals. Do you think it would be very likely that Bum Wine Wednesdays would be featured in a local paper? Probably not. Is it likely that a drinking tradition would have its own web-site? Probably not. Is it likely that a drinking tradition would be talked about all over the web, etc? Again, probably not. I think a much stronger case needs to be made in order to justify the deletion of this article, and the people who want to delete this article (for some muddled reasons that have yet to be fully explained or justified) must also refute the case that has thus been put forward. Additionally, I find the sudden urge to delete this article as random and unwarranted. A few simple searches reveal that much less substantiated claims about other universities and colleges around the US are made on Wikipedia and go unattacked. Examples are: "Rumor has it they have pretty good curly fries too (disputed fact)." - Lewis and Clark College, or "Famous on-campus myths claim there exist an intact MG under the concrete foundation of the college library, an underground primate lab working exclusively with snow monkeys under the Psychology building (the legend states that the presence of this lab was discovered when a snow monkey escaped into the Canyon and necessitated the closing of the facility), and a four-story lab/habitation arcology under the Physics building. There are many other such stories, often referred to as Reed legends." - Reed College... the list goes on, of course. Have any of these "myths" and "facts" been thoroughly checked by those people want to delete this "hoax?" I sure hope so; if not, then it seems that there is yet another reason for why this article should not be deleted. And lastly, if this article is in fact a "hoax," then why are so many people willing to say that they go to Willamette and know that BWW is a true tradition? And why is someone willing to actually do more research and contact alumni about the matter? It would seem that BWW is a Willamette Tradition and there seems to be no evidence to the contrary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.254 (talk • contribs)
• Comment"I was the original author of the article. I've received messages warning me to stop "vandalizing" pages. I apologize for the miscommunication. I was unaware creating wikipedia entries on college traditions was somehow bad. After all, wikipedia happily hosts articles on drinking games like beer pong, kings, quarters, and even dartmouth pong, a derivative of Beer Pong unique to Dartmouth. Surely BWW, spread through several schools around the country (now including the University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, and the University of Georgia), is more deserving of webspace than the equally unconfirmable "dartmouth pong". It's natural that BWW would not occur in other mediums. After all, college administrations are not likely publicize the drinking habits of their students. Wikipedia should be the proud host of the first articles on BWW and other growing cultural phonomenon. However, the extent of the debate on this page ought to justify the continued presence of the article. If this many people feel compelled to speak on the issue, there must be some degree of veracity. Veracity to which I, as one of three cofounders of BWW, can personally attest." <nicholas r>158.104.72.33 10:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)</nicholas r>
• Comment I'm from the University of Montana, and Bum Wine Wednesday is practiced around here. It's legit all the way around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.131.37.240 (talk • contribs)
• Comment Oddly enough, all of the 158... addresses are from Willamette Univesity. How coincidental. I wonder if John Callahan at jcallaha@willamette.edu would be interested in how the school's computers are being used to perpetrate hoaxes on Wikipedia. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment You seem to be suggesting something sinsiter Zoe. We are not denying that 158... is at least the Salem/Kaizer area and includes Willamette. We are Willamette students who wish for a tradition which started here and is at least present at other universities in the western United States to be allowed by a website that also allows such traditions as <Dartmouth Pong> which has no relevency outside the university at all. On a side note, feel free to email John. These are personal computers using the campus ISP. Ahimsa52 00:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • If this "tradition" is so widespread, how is it that it has no Google hits? User:Zoe|^(talk) 00:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
    • No one has claimed that every college student everywhere takes part in BWW. You are simply attempting to create a stick-man that you can discredit, but you seem to misunderstand what BWW really is; BWW is a drinking tradition at Willamette University that is gaining ground around the country. Look the the post from the U of Montana student who says he has heard of BWW. I think that proves the BWW is a growing and well-founded tradition. If your only complaint is that BWW is not celebrated by every college student in the US, then why not just move the article to fit under the Willamette University article and have a segment explaining that BWW is rapidly growing. And finally, Google is not the only source of information that exists. Please provide another reason, other than a simple Google search, that explains why the BWW article should be taken done. Then look to the fact that Alumni, WU students, and college students from around the country have come forward to say that they know that BWW is a tried and true tradition.158.104.76.254 00:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I wish to respond to the comments made by "Zoe." First, Zoe, it is silly to suggest that the Bum Wine Wednesday article is "advertising." Is Willamette University in the pocket of bumwine.com? I doubt it. In fact, that's just not true. To the extent that this is your only reason you give for wanting to delete the article, I would ask you to reconsider. Secondly, your "comment" about how WU computers are being used is offensive at best. First, your analysis is flawed because, as stated above, students all over campus and in the area share IP addresses; not every student is using a WU computer, most are using their own, private computers. Second, even if students are using WU computers, it doesn't matter. There is no policy at WU that states that students can't use school computers to edit, etc. wikipedia. Third, your claim that BWW is a "hoax," but you fail to explain why; you fail to refute any of the claims made by people who oppose this article's deletion, and you fail to explain why a "hoax" would be defended in such great numbers. Lastly, I am both offended and disturbed that you would, in effect, threaten those of us who are trying to have a reasonable ant thoughtful conversation on why we believe the article should remain. I find it hard to believe that you would try to stiffle discourse with petty threats. Please, in the future, try to make a point instead of threatening people with threats that, in fact, have little or no backing.158.104.76.254 00:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I can't believe how sinister this has become. Those who oppose BWW are conducting a witch hunt with Google as their Holy Bible. Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.9 (talk • contribs)
• Comment It seems BWW is even practiced in little old Helena, MT. Yes, it is growing. And I think the fact that "Dartmouth Pong" stays should mean this ought to stay also. BWW even has an activist element to it. Give change to the poor. Patstaboo 02:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment So after 24 hours I see: 7 delete votes (including my nomination); 2 keep votes from registered Wikipedia users at Willamette; and 4 keep votes from anonymous users on the Willamette University network. But I still have not seen any source for the claim that this is a widespread tradition. I have no doubt at all that it is a Willamette University tradition, but as such it belongs on the Willamette University article, not in its own page. Tim Pierce 05:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
• Comment Thanks Tim. At least some progress has now been made. I think that it is very important that BWW has now been recognized as a WU tradition and as such is a a true tradition. We know now that, at least, the BWW article should not be removed from Wikipedia. I think that most of us would be content to see the article moved to fit under the Willamette University article. I would still contend that BWW deserves its own article, though; simply because of the fact that numerous people from around the west and north west have come forward to say that they too participate in BWW. I hope that i do not come accross as asking for too much, but I just feel that I should voice my opinion. But, I would be happy if 1) the article was moved (for the time-being until more proof comes forward that BWW is more wide-spread than simply WU) to fit under the WU article, and 2) BWW was allowed a link to the Bum Wine article since it is a related subject. I just want to state, again, how happy it makes me that there is now some signs of progress and compromise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.104.76.254 (talk • contribs)
  • Honestly, I don't think there was ever a real question of whether this information belonged in the Willamette University article. Please feel free to move the information there and redirect Bum Wine Wednesday to Willamette University. But I recommend including at least one independent source for the Bum Wine Wednesday tradition, or some other editor may think that it's a hoax and revert it as well. Tim Pierce 19:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.