Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Devlin

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Devlin

Battle of Devlin (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Unsourced article, too little context to establish if this actually happened. The link from Irish battles hints that it may have been in Ireland, but Ireland is not even mentioned in the article. Tim! (talk) 18:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Weak delete as unverifiable unless some sources can be found. As the article stands, there is no strong evidence of the existence of this battle. There are a few more ghits for "Delbhna Bethra", but nothing I can really make sense of. --BelovedFreak 20:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Changing to Keep per Mandsford, sources need to be properly referenced in the article. Given that they are not in English, I found it difficult to verify that they actually mentioned the battle. (I believe they do, but proper citations in the article would help.)--BelovedFreak 21:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Annals of the Four Masters is a verifiable source for the information, see:this and this, maintained by the University College of Cork (Ireland) Mandsford (talk) 21:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. —Nick Dowling (talk) 22:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • undecided - Mandsford are you able to more specifically point out this one. Exit2DOS2000•T•C• 09:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, obviously notable. Existence seems to be confirmed. Everyking (talk) 07:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Exit2Dos has a good point; this is verifiable, although I'm having trouble verifying specific references to the Battle of Devlin in the online version of Four Masters, particularly since "Devlin" was also a name; looking at Delbhna Bethra finds something in the Irish version, but I haven't had time to find the equivalent in the English; it's somewhere in the 900s, which is how they list the Four Masters texts. Mandsford (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment This article is confusing. The only Delbhna Bethra reference in the Annals of the Four Masters is to the death in 1001AD of the lord of Delbhna Bethra, a tribe in County Westmeath (see Delbhna). I am fairly sure Devlin is an error though, as Delbhna would usually be Anglicised as Delvin and there is indeed a town in Westmeath of that name: see Delvin. The AOTFM refers to a battle that took place in 1328: "M1328.26 The English sustained a great defeat from Mageoghegan, three thousand five hundred of them being slain in the contest, together with some of the Daltons, and the son of the Proud Knight." Clearly this is the battle referred to, though no location is given. Hayes, in the Ballads of Ireland (1855), glosses the ballad known as 'The Battle of Ardnocher' thus: "AD 1328, MacGeoghegan gave a great overthrow to the English, in which three thousand five hundred of them, together with the D'Altons, were slain. This battle, in which the English forces met such tremendous defeat, was fought near Mullingar, on the day before the feast of St. Laurence — namely, the 9th August. The Irish clans were commanded by William MacGeoghegan, Lord of Kenil Feacha, in Westmeath, comprising the present baronies of Aloycashel and Rathconrath. The English forces were commanded by Lord Thomas Butler, the Petits, Tuites, Nangles, Detainers, &c. The battle took place at the Hill of Ardnocher. — Annals of the Four Masters." Evidently this is the battle referred to - Delvin is near Mullingar (20km). I can find no reference to the battle being referred to as the Battle of Delvin, or Battle of Devlin, or Battle of Delbhna Bethra. No source was given for the original reference. Can I suggest the article be kept but moved to Battle of Ardnocher? --Rbreen (talk) 15:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment - updating myself I find that Ardnocher is átha an urchair, now called Horseleap, but formerly Ardnocher, Ardnorcher, or Ardnurcher. The battle certainly took place; the only question is by what name it should be known. --Rbreen (talk) 16:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - having looked into this in detail, I can see that the battle is clearly historical (I have added information and references); but assuming it is kept, I will move it to Ardnocher or Ardnorcher, as that is the name it appears to be best known under. --Rbreen (talk) 20:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.