Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 16:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism

It is a POV fork if I ever saw one. The whole purpose is try to distinguish anarcho-capitalism as something other than a legitimate form of anarchism. Even the title implies that anarcho-capitalism is not a type of anarchism. There is already a Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism article, so why the need for another POV fork? Any claims that anarcho-capitalism is not "legit" anarchism should go in there. DTC 18:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete POV fork (I am the initiator of the vote). DTC 17:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment - This isn't a fork, but instead a related article, concerning not criticism of an-cap but a discussion of an-caps position within the wider anarchism movement. --GoodIntentions^talk 06:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This is really an entry about the debate over anarcho-capitalism, which is real enough, and it serves a useful purpose. Libertatia 17:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment There is already "Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism." Why the need for multiple POV forks? Take anything useful out of there and put it in the Criticisms article. DTC 17:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Because saying an-cap isn't a form of anarchism isn't strictly speaking a criticism but rather a description. --GoodIntentions^talk 06:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment It looks to me like the article proposed for deletion has seen more and better editing than the article with which merger is proposed. I agree there is no need for both. If, however, an article dealing with the debate is retained, I'm inclined to think we're moving towards deleting the wrong one. Libertatia 19:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete As it IS a POV fork, however I agree with user DTC that anything useful should be kept, but within the Criticisms article, or within the Anarcho-Capitalism article in the appropriate spot. Green hornet 22:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, needless POV fork. Sandstein 09:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
• See also Anarchism vs. anarcho-capitalism (AfD discussion) and Anarcho-socialism vs. Anarcho-capitalism (AfD discussion) for some prior related discussions. Uncle G 11:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge anything NPOV to Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism and delete. Alba 17:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This is an obvious pov fork and a clear attempt at undermining an opposing point of view concerning the legitimacy of varying types of anarchism. Imagination débridée 01:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's a discussion of the question of an-cap's place in the wider anarchist movement. It's the most NPOV discussion of this problem on WP! --GoodIntentions^talk 06:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Scrapes of this article can be added to the Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism. Intangible 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep This article discusses the opposing viewpoints as to whether or not anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism. It also compares and contrasts traditional anarchism and this new anarcho-capitalism. There is enough information and controversy about these two issues to merit a separate article. What's in this article isn't criticism, but rather an importantant description of profound ideological differences. -- WGee 03:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, POV fork and OR. -- Vision Thing -- 20:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Although the POV and OR dangers are obvious (and although the idea that AnCaps are not anarchists is like saying that Stalinists were not socialists) this is a very real question that comes up with the whole AnCap philosophy. It should have an article. JASpencer 20:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment And isn't legitimate form of anarchism coming close to an oxymoron? JASpencer 20:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The degree to which this is untrue, or rather insufficient, is the problem this article was (painstakingly, I might add) written to address. There are two arguments against accepting anarcho-capitalism as anarchistic, which are similar to why one might not call Zimbabwe a democracy despite the claims of the Zanu PF. Firstly, the "an-cap is an oxymoron" argument states that because capitalism (and in particular an-cap) supports the authority of ownership absolutely what would be achieved under an-cap wouldn't be a lack of a state but a series of private states, thereby a non-anarchy. The other argument is to point out that anarchism is more than a concept but a historical practice and a body of theory, one being entirely, incontrovertably anti-capitalist. This article sets out to address this, and shouldn't be deleted but made the cornerstone of the WP approach to an-cap-as-anarchism. --GoodIntentions^talk 06:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep "Anarcho"-capitalism is not accepted by most real anarchists and this should be reflected, despite the wish of the ancaps that it's ignored. Donnacha 21:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The article might need work, but it's still legitimate. --AaronS 00:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete If the article is supposed be about whether anarcho-capitalism's claim that it's a form of anarchism is a false claim, then why isn't the article called "Arguments over whether anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism"? As it stands now, Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism can be about anything, and that's probably what explains how incoherent the article is. There is no hope for the article. Delete it and move some of the criticisms to the Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism article. What is the point? To show that anarcho-capitalism is not like other forms of anarchism so that it will be concluded that it is not a form of anarchism? Since when does a form of anarchism have to be like other forms of anarchism? This article has a fundamental POV problem that cannot be fixed. It is best to just delete it. PlayersPlace 01:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"If the article is supposed be about whether anarcho-capitalism's claim that it's a form of anarchism is a false claim". It isn't this - it is a discussion on that claim but especially on the relationship between the an-cap movement and the (universally socialistic) anarchism movement that predates and rejects an-cap. It is concerned only with an-cap-as-anarchism, and is not a discussion of the criticisms of an-cap at all. --GoodIntentions^talk 06:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

"Since when does a form of anarchism have to be like other forms of anarchism?" When the point under discussion makes the two mutually exclusive, like the support for capitalism in this case. To those who view an-cap as non-anarchism say anarcho-capitalism is like enviro-strip mining. --GoodIntentions^talk 06:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - POV fork? It is, or rather should be, a discussion of one particular problem, like omnipotence paradox or human rights in Myanmar. For it to be a POV fork would require an Anarcho-capitalism as anarchism and Anarcho-capitalism as non-anarchism page or equivalents, instead both are discussed on this single, informative page. I'm sure every who has commented on this has had a lot of exposure to this type of argument, and having an article on that argument is quite necessary, and especially not a POV fork! --GoodIntentions^talk 06:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment An article dealing with discussion of one particular problem is fine when that problem is widely discussed in literature. However, question whether anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism is not a theme of any scholarly work that I know of, so content of this article is original research, and subject itself is non-notable. -- Vision Thing -- 17:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per above. Lectert 12:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This is an important issue within anarchism. the article presents the issue thoroughly and clearly from many viewpoints. i vote for improvement rather than deletion. Blockader 18:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment It looks like a useless article to me and I don't really care whether it's deleted or not, but at the very least the title should be changed to something like "Anti-capitalist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism" or "Social anarchism and anarcho-capitalism." The title as it stands now seems to indiciate that Anarchism and anarcho-capitalism are two different things which, in my opinion, they're not. So it's a POV title.Anarcho-capitalism 18:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Isn't this a fork, and expressly not allowed? A user got banned for this on the anarchism article. This article is also heavily POV. - MSTCrow 01:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Anarchism and capitalism, the sensible place to describe the relationship between capitalism and various varieties of anarchism. *Dan T.* 03:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a very real source of debate between traditional anarchists and anarcho-capitalists, and it doesn't belong either directly in the Anarcho-capitalism article or in the Criticisms of anarcho-capitalism article, since it is ancillary to both. A merge with Anarchism and capitalism would also be a mistake, since this is a dispute between anarchism and the political philosophy of anarcho-capitalism, not just with the concept of capitalism itself. The article does need to be revised since it is clearly POV, but it still provides significant information. --Academician 10:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment There is no such dispute between anarcho-capitalism and other forms of anarchism in academia. It's simply some editors on Wikipedia debating over it and that's why there shouldn't be an article. You too seem to be assuming that anarcho-capitalism something other than anarchism in your wording that "this is a dispute between anarchism and the political philosophy of anarcho-capitalism." Anarchism is an umbrella term than includes various kinds of anarchism. A debate between anarchism and anarcho-capitalism makes no sense at all and is inherently POV because the POV being pushed is that they're two distinct philosophies. DTC 16:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • Comment Blatantly untrue. Real scholarship on anarchism is rare, most cited works are simply broad works on philosophy and politics that mention without any real analysis what people say. Proper scholarship on anarchism is by anarchists - Chomsky, Peter Marshall, Paul Avrich, Howard Zinn, etc. Proper scholarship on "anarcho"-capitalism is virtually non-existent, aside from its own proponents. It's been nearly 100 years (1910) since one of the most respected works of reference, The Encyclopaedia Britannica, requested that Kropotkin write the section on anarchism because they recognised that the hostility against its ideas blighted virtually all other sources. This remains true, those who truly analyse and document anarchist ideas are anarchists themselves, thus the dispute between anarchism proper and "anarcho"-capitalism is central to the primary academic discussion of anarchism. Donnacha 16:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment I can assure you whether anarcho-capitalism should be included under the umbrella of anarchim is not discussed in academia. If anyone needs sources from a wide range of scholars taking for granted that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism, look at my Userpage for a large list. This is a dispute manufactured by some people on the internet that does not exist in academia.Anarcho-capitalism 16:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment So, Chomsky's not a part of academia now, really? Donnacha 17:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment Chomsky says it's a "strain of anarchism" and calls it "right-wing anarchism." Sure, he doesn't like it but that's because he's a leftist.Anarcho-capitalism 17:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Although I can see why some say "just put the contents into CRITICISM of..." I disagree with the POV proclaimers -- because a LOT of the content is not pro- or anti- but instead is just comparing to / contrasting with individualist anarchism (many people equate the two -- see esp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_anarcho-capitalism#Anarcho-capitalism_as_a_form_of_individualist_anarchism ) so perhaps THIS article could have any alleged POV content removed/edited, and the rest stay as-is and linked to from the "criticism" article?199.214.27.205 21:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This looks like a bad faith nomination to me. If the nomination instead was based on that it gives undue weight to ancap then it would perhaps be another issue. // Liftarn 12:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. POV fork. Davey Lloyd George 18:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.