Talk:Article One of the United States Constitution

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Former featured article Article One of the United States Constitution is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 30, 2005.
Article One of the United States Constitution is part of WikiProject U.S. Congress, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the United States Congress.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
The options are: "FA", "A", "GA", "B", "Start", "Stub", "List", "Disambiguation", "Template", or "Category."
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
The options are: "Top", "High", "Mid", and "Low."
??? This article has not yet been assigned a subject.
The options are: "Person", "People", "Place", "Thing", and "Event."
WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia The spoken word version of this revision (diff) of this article is part of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, an attempt to produce recordings of Wikipedia articles being read aloud. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and find out how to contribute.

Someone please track down the origin of that Senate image! Thank you. +sj+

Much searching reveals that it is from the AP (1998).

The original author neglected to include two legally declared wars when discussing Constitutional War Powers - the Mexican-American War and the Barbary Coast War. There is some argument for including a seventh conflict, the so-called "Border War" with Pancho Villa.

Contents

[edit] Vesting clauses in each of the articles

A recent change has the article state: "Similar (but, critically, not identical) "vesting clauses" are found in the other two Articles.". As this ought to be more precise, and likely not parenthetical, what is the substantial nature of these not being identical and its relevance to the article? - Centrx 01:03, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Letters of marque

This article currently makes the statement:

Congress may grant letters of marque and reprisal; such letters are now obsolete.

According to Letter of marque, the United States is not a signatory to the 1856 Declaration of Paris, which banned the "issuance of letters of marque and reprisal to private parties". This suggests that such letters are still issuable by Congress, however diplomatically untenable they may be. Is there a more recent treaty, binding on the U.S., or a U.S. law that makes these letters obsolete? — Jeff Q (talk) 14:46, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article letter of marque notes, "The United States was not a signatory and is not bound by that Declaration, but did issue statements during the 1861-65 American Civil War, and during the 1898 Spanish-American War, that it would abide by the principles of the Declaration of Paris..." Letters of marque are obsolete in the U.S. simply because they have not been issued by Congress in a long time. -- Emsworth 15:16, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Statements issued that cover a wartime policy are hardly binding on future governments outside that war period. Even treaties signed by nations may be unilaterally abrogated (as has been recently demonstrated by many nations, including the U.S.). Nations often dredge up old practices when they're in a bind, justifying the action by arguing that they never agreed to stop. I don't think the word "obsolete" can be used unless the U.S. has made a formal, unqualified commitment not to issue such letters. "Archaic" may be more accurate, though that sounds a bit odd when applied to a political practice. Perhaps "no longer practiced" is the most accurate description. — Jeff Q (talk) 02:11, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Residency Requirement

Waaaiiit. What are the examples of Congresscritters or Senators being elected but not living in the district they're running for?

I provided one example from early on. MrArticleOne (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1808 issue

"No amendment made prior to 1808 could affect the first and fourth clauses of Section Nine."

This needs to be better explained. Why couldn't an amendment be made? What prevented it? Why was this done? How? Kingturtle 21:26, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The simple answer to the first two questions is in Section 9 itself:
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight…
The "why" is only hinted at in History of the United States Constitution, in which we observe that there were heated regional arguments. An obvious one was whether the U.S. should use the guideline of the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal" to bolster the case to end slavery. As the main (unstated) goal of the Constitutional Convention was to replace the ineffectual Articles of Confederation with a strong document to shore up the chaotic new nation, this was apparently the best compromise they could reach between the pro- and anti-slavery factions. I should think that this topic would deserve an article all by itself. — Jeff Q (talk) 03:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
P.S. Actually, my citation of the 1st clause only covers itself; the broader coverage of both 1st and 4th clauses can be found in Article V:
… no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article…
My apologies for the oversight. — Jeff Q (talk) 03:10, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] One reference?

Surely not! - Ta bu shi da yu 23:44, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

The items presently forming the external links section were actually used as references. -- Emsworth 00:01, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I went back to the Wikipedia:Guide to layout to point out the standard appendices, and found that there is now a note that the "References" and "External topics" separation does not have a consensus. I have therefore restructured the sections, putting both under a single "References" section, with one subsection for "Books" and another for "External links". — DLJessup 02:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Delegation of Powers

JW, I don't know what you mean by "clarify, provide example." What exactly do you have a problem with? You know that I don't edit on a whim. I've spent hours researching the authoritative sources on this, but nothing speaks louder or more clearly than the Constitution itself. It is incorrect to say that those who take issue with delegation of legislative power do so because some "principle of separation of powers implies" something. No implication is used or needed. The wording of the Constitution could not be more clear. The Constitution specifically enumerates that no federal power can be derived from any source other than the Constitution. It also enumerates that all legislative powers granted by the Constitution shall be vested in a Congress. No authoritative source disputes this. Wording the article to make it seem that the Constitution possibly grants Congress the power to delegate legislative responsibilities is wholly your opinion. The Supreme Court doesn't argue that the Constitution grants delegation power and neither does any other source. The Supreme Court only argues the issue on the need for Congress to have that power. The court's decision should be noted, but it doesn't change the wording or the meaning of the Constitution. The Constitution stands by itself. It means exactly what it says it means. An article on the Constitution must be about the Constitution. Anything you want to add about court decisions is secondary. I'm sorry if I'm mentioning truisms, but I don't know what else to say. What is wrong with talking about the precise wording of the Constitution in an article about the Constitution? Regardless of what Supreme Court said later, Article One still reads, "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress," and the Tenth Amendment still reads, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The words didn't change. --Zephram Stark 05:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

  • This is not the forum for you to "prove" that much of what Congress currently does is against the founder's original intent. We have the text, the court's interpretation , and mention that some people don't agree with it. You should also check out the notion of "implied powers", which are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution, but are logical extensions of one or more enumerated power. --JW1805 16:03, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • "We have the text, the court's interpretation , and mention that some people don't agree with it." One of those three things is the focus of this article. The other two are merely side notes. If you want to add court decisions, opinions, and other interpretations, that comes secondary to the text of the Constitution. --Zephram Stark 20:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text

Wikisource includes the full text of Article One - do we need to include it here? As I understand it, an encyclopedia does not usually contain such extensive quotations from primary sources (see WP:NOT). The version that was approved as a "featured article" did not include the quotations.

I appreciate that this article is about the text of Article One and its meaning, but it is already freely available at Wikisource. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree that merely restating it is not particularly helpful. On the other hand, I think the bits that I have worked on, calling out a particular clause and then discussing what I feel are the relevant interpretations/implications of that language, offer substantial value-added. So, I would agree with your general sentiment, but as I progress through the article, it's my intention to keep the quoted text of the Constitution and make the commentary such that it is relevant to the text more specifically, which would justify retaining the specific quoted portions. MrArticleOne (talk) 00:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous Edits

1) Alliance is linked to the disambiguation page. I think in this context that makes sense. Otherwise, it should link to the Wiktionary entry. Anjin 20:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC) 2) Others?

[edit] enactment

it says "for instance, the executive may not enact laws"

but then at enact we have an article implying the President of the United States enacts law. reword? Morwen - Talk 14:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Cabinet and Section 6 (Compensation and privileges)

Do cabinet members or the President have any privileges similar to, for example, parliamentary privilege? It would be interesting if they could speak to openly (perhaps to Congress) about concerns they have. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 00:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Impeachment section

Hello all. I have a few problems with the entry's handling of the Senate power to try all impeachments, discussed is Art. I, Sec 3. Allow me to quote from the entry itself:

Section 3, Clause 7: Impeachment judgments
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
If an executive officer is convicted on impeachment, he or she is immediately removed from office, but the Senate may choose not to remove a judicial officer. The Senate decided, when considering the impeachment of Senator William Blount, that members of Congress may not be tried on impeachment. The Senate also may disqualify the defendant from holding any public office in the future. No other punishments may be inflicted, but the impeached party remains liable to trial and punishment in the courts.

The Senate may choose not to remove a judicial officer? That statement is unsourced and at odds with the facts. Judicial officers serve "during good behavior" and being convicted in an impeachment trial is the only method of demonstrating bad behavior. Upon conviction, all officials -- judicial and executive -- are removed from any office they may currently hold. Such was the case with Judge Nixon in 1989 when his judgement of removal was ordered by the Chair immediately following conviction. I will soon edit this entry to reflect that fact. I would link to the Senate record here, but the link from Thomas is temporary. But the impeachment vote in the Senate was on 3 November 1989 and you can check it out yourself at the Congressional Record - 101st Congress. Additionally, the opinion of the Supreme Court in Nixon v. United States has a summary of the proceedings.

The question on the impeachment of Members of Congress is a long-running disagreement I am having with several other wikipedia entries. First, I argue that there is nothing in the text of the Constitution which states that Members are not "civil Officers of the United States." Thus, no one is perfectly clear on the answer to this question. Two, I submit that only the opinions of the House of Representatives, the body with the "sole Power" to impeach are relevant in a question about who is subject to impeachment. The Senate is not capable of imposing upon the House a requirement or standard - it is only the House's opinion and decision on impeachment that determine who is impeached. Third, I contest that the Senate "decided that Members of Congress may not be tried on impeachment." That's not actually what the Senate records indicate. The Senate, after initially hearing the impeachment, dismissed it for lack of jurisdiction. But it did not explain its decision. Perhaps there was no jurisdiction because the Memebr had already been expelled. Perhaps there was no jurisdiction for another reason. There is no evidence that the impeachment was dismissed because he was a Member of Congress. I am eager to hear the opinions of others before I edit the article on this point.

JasonCNJ 05:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It does not strike me as a plausible interpretation of "civil Officer of the United States" that it should apply to members of Congress. This is confirmed by the Constitution's textual committment of disciplining members to a non-impeachment process (expulsion on 2/3rds vote). It would be curious, to say the least, that the Constitution would set up a procedure expressly formed for the purpose of ejecting members from the chamber, but would somewhat obliquely and sub silentio also subject members to removal via another process that is more clearly designed for proceedings against extra-congressional persons. Additionally, it would allow for a mere majority of the members of the House to expel a member, so long as a Senate super-majority that was hostile to that member existed. This would circumvent the requirement that members could only be expelled on a 2/3rds vote of the chamber. Additionally, all of this is such a fine and subtle point that I don't think it is necessary for an article discussing the "meat and potatoes" of the constitutional text. MrArticleOne 20:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a separate article on the Appropriations Clause?

I searched for an article on the Appropriations Clause as it is cited in a recent Supreme Court case article I was editing. I couldn't find anything. Is there an article under a different name perhaps, or are we lacking on this one?

The quote says "The Appropriations Clause, Article I, § 9, Cl. 7, further provides that 'no Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law.'"

Looking up the phrase in a search engine there appears to be a lot of cases calling this clause by that name.--Wowaconia 17:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commerce Clause

I've edited out the following from the Commerce Clause section:

In the 1990s, however, the Court acted to restrain Congress's unconstitutional exercise of their now stretched, over-extensive power to regulate commerce. Congress passed acts that punished crimes on the absurd grounds that they discouraged individuals from engaging in interstate commerce; including various other acts pertaining to different areas of life where Congress abused their power of regulation over interstate commerce (away from the original intent of the founders) as an excuse to justify their expansion of federal power over the liberties, rights, and powers of the states and individual citizens of the United States.

because it displays major bias and POV.Evilteuf 18:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How did congress go about changing "The number of representatives shall not exceed one for every 30,000..."

Article I Section 2 states in the third paragraph, "The number of representatives shall not exceed one for every 30,000..."

A book I have on the constitution simply states that congress passed a law in 1929 limiting the number of members to 435.

How did congress pass this law without first ratifying an amendment?--I Use Dial 04:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Currently, the number of representatives does not exceed one for every 30,000.Ferrylodge 13:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Currently there are 435 members in the House, so about one representative for every 693,000 people in the U.S.--I Use Dial 07:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
So, for every 30,000 people in the U.S. there's about .04 representatives.Ferrylodge 14:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Untaxed Native Americans

Any info on those? - Lev 20:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added an appropriate citation. MrArticleOne (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Reverted Edits

Several edits were recently reverted. I fail to see what aspect of these was incorrect or presented an identifiable POV. They strike me as quite unremarkable. I'll list the points that I see as having been raised and rejected:

1. Comment that the vesting clause of Article I contains the language "herein granted," which is understood to mean that Congress is limited to those powers specifically enumerated. It is not my understanding this is considered a controversial position and has Supreme Court support. See, e.g., United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549, 592 (1995) ("[Certain] comments of Hamilton and others about federal power reflected the well-known truth that the new Government would have only the limited and enumerated powers found in the Constitution. . . . Even before the passage of the Tenth Amendment, it was apparent that Congress would possess only those powers 'herein granted' by the rest of the Constitution.").

2. Comment that the vesting clauses of Articles II and III do not contain the language "herein granted," and the "expressio unius" arguments that are typically derived from that. Although it is certainly a political hot potato as to the precise extent of the difference (especially with respect to the Executive), it is my understanding that this is the conventional interpretation of the text. For example, although the Supreme Court has rejected particular efforts by the Executive to justify its behavior via this interpretive mechanism (e.g., Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952)), it is not seriously disputed that there are certain aspects of "the executive Power" that the President properly exercises but are not specifically enumerated. See Myers v. United States, 272 U.S. 52, 117-18, 128 (1926) ("[T]he natural meaning of the term ‘executive power’ granted the President included the appointment and removal of executive subordinates. If such appointments and removals were not an exercise of the executive power, what were they? They certainly were not the exercise of legislative or judicial power in government as usually understood. . . . The difference between the grant of legislative power under article 1 to Congress which is limited to powers therein enumerated, and the more general grant of the executive power to the President under article 2 is significant. The fact that the executive power is given in general terms strengthened by specific terms where emphasis is appropriate, and limited by direct expressions where limitation is needed, and that no express limit is placed on the power of removal by the executive is a convincing indication that none was intended."). Again, I mean not to take sides in the debate about the President's discretion to do things like torture people or commit our armed forces into battle without approval from Congress; only to say that there is more to the "executive Power" than is specifically prescribed. There's something there; we disagree on how much.

3. Comment that the Equal Protection Clause (and the Supreme Court's jurisprudence under it) places additional limitations on the States' abilities to prescribe voter qualifications. For example, in Harper v. Va. Bd. of Elections, 383 U.S. 663 (1966), the Supreme Court more or less made U.S. CONST. amend. XXIV superfluous, by holding that poll taxes were unconstitutional in any election, not just federal elections, as a violation of U.S. CONST. amend. XIV. Is there any doubt that this logic would preclude a State from enacting a voter qualification based on (for example) educational level (only people with a college degree may vote?) or economic class (only people making more than $35,000/yr may vote, while making no requirement that they pay any sort of tax?). It seems obvious to me that the Equal Protection Clause adds additional limitations on the States' ability to define voter qualifications. You could argue that it is POV to say it has less meaning than meets the eye, but at the very least, it undoubtedly has much less meaning than it did when written, since the States had almost unfettered ability to discriminate between individuals to decide who could vote and who could not.

4. Comment that the States are represented in the House as units. It is possible that this could be worded somewhat differently, but it (again) strikes me as generally uncontroversial. We routinely speak of each State having a "delegation" to the House; this would not be the case if Representatives were districted nationally, in order to achieve maximum population equity between districts (e.g., Wyoming sharing a representative with parts of Colorado). Cf. Adams v. Clinton, 90 F. Supp. 2d 35 (D.D.C.), aff'd mem., 531 U.S. 941 (2000) (affirming the notion that States receive representation in the House due to their status as States by denying representation in the House to the District of Columbia on account of it not being a State).

How is it that the language that was reverted was problematic? The above seems to support what was said, at least to me. 76.10.24.2 03:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Required?

Often, when a married Senator dies in office, the spouse of the deceased Senator is appointed to fill out the deceased Senator's term. This usually places that spouse first in line in any primary election or caucus to fill that seat at the next Senate elections.

This seems odd to me, for I have never heard it before. It may be vandalism. Citation is definitely required. NuclearWarfare 01:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Something similar happened a few years ago in Missouri; Mel Carnahan died while campaigning for the Senate seat, but so soon before the election that nothing could be done about it. He won the election posthumously, and his wife was appointed to fill the vacancy. I don't know that it has happened so often that we could say this happens "often," however. It is not any kind of typical convention that I am aware of. There are lots of unwritten rules that it's OK for us to talk about here (e.g., that the Speaker of the House is always a member, despite there being no such requirement; the President pro tempore of the Senate is always the senior member of the majority party, despite there being no such requirement; etc.) but this is not one of them. MrArticleOne 20:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Declaration of War

Under the War Powers Clause, only Congress may declare war, but in several cases it has, without declaring war, granted the President the authority to engage in military conflicts. Six wars have been declared in American history: the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, World War I and World War II, and The War on Iraq. Some historians argue that the legal doctrines and legislation passed during the operations against Pancho Villa constitute a sixth declaration of war.

Declaration of war arises from a pre-modern notion of duties between states. It required one state, usually in the person of the king or ruler, to declare that a state of war existed between it and other states. Though in the 21st century, states war with each other, it's rare that they declare war. For example, when Argentina occupied the Falkland Islands in 1982, neither the UK nor Argentina declared that a state of war existed. On the other hand, Somalia under the Islamic Court Union did declare war against Ethiopia in 2006, so maybe it will come back in vogue.

If you look at the declarations of war between the US and Germany, Italy and Japan, it's pretty clear what that entailed. Under the Constitution, only Congress could say:

That the state of war between the United States and the Imperial Government of Japan which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and that the President be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the United States and the resources of the Government to carry on war against the Imperial Government of Japan; and, to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States.

In the case of Iraq, no such declaration of war exists. There is the "AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ RESOLUTION OF 2002", but that does not declare that a state of war exists between the United States and Iraq, and it allows for the use of force in October 2002 for an invasion that began in March 2003.

In the same vein, I'm not sure that the United States could have gone to war with Tripoli, Algiers and Tunis during the Barbary wars, since they seemed to have be a part of the Ottoman Empire, but I'm not that well-versed on the law of the Ottoman Empire. --Chesterg (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It is well-known and uncontroversial that the last declared war in our history was World War II. The only people who don't know this, it seems to me, are either the uninformed/confused, or apologists for the current administration trying to slip in "weasel words" subtly justifying the current involvement in Iraq. Both are wrong. MrArticleOne (talk) 00:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting two sections

MrArticleOne went and deleted the introductory paragraphs to sections two and three. I felt that something this major should first be brought up here and so I undid those deletions. So, anyone in favor of deleting those paragraphs? NuclearWarfare (talk) 23:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, I am. They don't actually have much of anything to do with the article, which is Article One of the Constitution. At best, I feel like the text ought to say something like "Section 2 establishes the U.S. House of Representatives." Since the actual clause-by-clause analysis makes this apparent immediately and continuously, it's unnecessary to do that. The rest of it is either a commentary on the respective powers of the houses, which is written from a perspective of the institution, not the organic law, or else it's just trivial history (like the business about making obeisance to the Senate). MrArticleOne (talk) 00:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)