Talk:Arthur Rubinstein

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[edit] ARTUR not ARTHUR

His name is Artur, not Arthur. This page needs to be moved.

Rubinstein preferred to use Arthur when in English speaking countries. Since this is the English version of Wikipedia, Arthur it is! THD3 01:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ETC

the wawa doll(baby!) music professor!

Rubinstein is widely considered as the greatest pianists of the 20th Century.

Needs to be backed up by a reference. My edit to "one of" the greatest pianists was reverted by 87.69.0.37, whose contributions include downgrading Sviatoslav Richter, who would also be a candidate for greatest pianist of the twentieth century. I wonder whether this anonymous user has some kind of agenda. Grover cleveland 13:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

He's probably just a fan of Mr. Rubinstein. :) As for Richter, he's up there, no doubt about it, but with Rachmaninoff, Cortot, Horowitz and Gould in the same century, Richter has some stiff competition for the title of "greatest pianist." 66.108.4.183 14:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth
Sure -- I totally agree that there are many candidates for the great pianists of the century. It's not Wikipedia's job to decide such contests. Grover cleveland 04:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
No, but it's good to have exchanges of views. For example, I love Cortot's playing, but I would never have put him in the same class as Richter, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz and Gould. JackofOz 13:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a little devil's-advocate-ish for me, but if you go by "the consensus," the two greatest of the 20th Century were Horowitz and Rubinstein. The previous generation: Hoffmann (sp?) and Rachmaninoff. Previous to that: Liszt and Anton Rubinstein. Again, that's just "consensus." But it's a firmly established consensus. LorenzoPerosi1898 13:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, if pianists of the 20th century are defined as those whose careers were developed for the most part in that century, the list of potential candidates would range from Moriz Rosenthal to Martha Argerich, including Leopold Godowsky, Josef Lhevinne, Ignaz Friedman and Claudio Arrau, amongst others, in the process. At the end of the day, selecting the greatest pianist of the 20th century will be a matter of pure personal choice.MUSIKVEREIN 17:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV/Verifiability Problems

I've tried to fix some of the worst problems with this article. Sentences such as

He [Rubinstein] never aspired to the stratospheric level of technique achieved by Leopold Godowsky or Vladimir Horowitz, but was more than equal to the task of the standard repertoire.

are great examples of the kind of thing that should not appear in a Wikipedia article. Do we actually know what level of technique Rubinstein aspired to? Is there any documentary evidence? If not, Wikipedia should not speculate about Rubinstein's internal state of mind. If so, this claim should be backed up with citations. See Wikipedia:Verifiability. Are the assertions that Godowsky and Horowitz achieved a "stratospheric" level of technique, or that Rubinstein was "more than equal" to the "standard repertoire" (whatever that is) an undisputed fact, or a statement of opinion? Surely the latter. See WP:NPOV. I've deleted the most egregious violations. Please read these Wikipedia policies -- thanks. Grover cleveland 04:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Rubinstein stated in an interview with Harold Schonberg that a flawless technique was not his goal. "Look at Godowsky. It would take me five hundred years to achieve that kind of mechanism. But he was a slave to the instrument, unhappy away from the piano." I think that pretty clearly illustrates Rubinstein's thinking. As to the comments about Horowitz's or Godowsky's technique, I suppose one could say ANY pianist has good or bad technique. But it's generally accepted in musical/pianistic circles that Godowsky and Horowitz were technical masters. THD3

Great -- if you have the citation information for that Rubinstein quote, please include it in the article. The "stratospheric" quote is still problematic according to WP:NPOV, even if it would be agreed to by most critics. Instead of saying "Horowitz has a stratospheric technique", we should rephrase as "Critic X says that Horowitz has a stratospheric technique", including citation information. I would also add that a decent case could be made that Horowitz's technique was somewhat less than "stratospheric" in all its aspects: for example compare his recording of Scriabin's Fifth Sonata with Richter's; it is very difficult to deny that Richter operated on a wholly different technical level, at least in that piece. Grover cleveland 21:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I think I may have a solution which is to base the technical talk on a quote from Rubinstein's memoirs, where he professed envy at pianists who could perform Scarlatti sonatas to perfection. I'll look up the quotes and add documentation. As for Horowitz, remember the guy was past his prime in 1976 when the recording was made. I'm familiar with Richter's Scriabin 5th--stunning. THD3

Ahh I had forgotten that the Horowitz Scriabin 5 was such a late recording. You have a point (and indeed I am a great Horowitz admirer myself). Grover cleveland 23:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Past his prime or not, I'm very fond of that performance, which is unmistakably horowitzian: it has colour, sweep and the trademark Horowitz sonority. Also, I'm not alone in that: David Dubal is a great admirer of that rendition, and Harold Schonberg, in his book on the pianist, says that "it far eclipses all other recordings of the work". Richter's version - faster (more than a minute shorter) and tauter - is really impressive, but Horowitz' Scriabin 5th is my desert island choice for that piece.MUSIKVEREIN 15:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rubinstein's Memory

Rubinstein's memory was formidable, and photographic in the sense that he actually SAW the score in his mind as he performed. Harvey Sachs' biography of the pianist goes into some detail about Rubinstein's memory, to the extent that the pianist stated he would see a stain from a cup of coffee on the page--in his mind's eye. However, there is no evidence that Rubinstein would memorize a piece after only a single read through. In fact, Rubinstein's memory lapses, and his deftness at covering them up so non-professionals would not notice, is legendary. As regards the Franck Symphonic Varations, the story of Rubinstein learning the piece on a train is recounted by Harold Schonberg, a reliable source. THD3 15:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I was mistaken regarding the source for the account of Rubinstein learning Franck's Symphonic Variations, although not the story itself. The source is Part 2 of Rubinstein's own memoirs, My Many Years, page 198. He learned it while en route, via train, to Madrid for a concert, without benefit of a piano (Rubinstein practiced difficult passages in his lap). It was not memorized in a single read through, but took more than one day. Rubinstein's memory, while formidable, was not infallible. He suffered from occasional memory lapses, as evidenced in pirate recordings and recounted by his son, John Rubinstein. THD3 14:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rubinstein & Brahms

I love the quote about Rubinstein, Brahms, and Scriabin. Upon reflection, I think that more could/should be said about AR's love for Brahms. I recall that AR was quick to point out (a) that he was 10 years old when JB died, thus he always thought of him as a "contemporary" composer; (b) that from the moment he heard the first piece of Brahms, he immediately had to have every piece he could get his hands on by him; (c) that he had cherished contacts with Joachim and several other musicians who knew Brahms. In fact, would it be fair to say that after Chopin, Brahms was AR's favorite composer? Anyhow, I humbly suggest that the Brahms connection could be expanded by a sentence or two. Best, LorenzoPerosi1898 09:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you have citations, go ahead and add them. Thanks. Grover cleveland 12:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I could add ten and you wouldn't be happy. THD3 will be happy to oblige. LorenzoPerosi1898 13:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Brahms was Rubinstein's favorite composer, not Chopin--even though Rubinstein is more closely associated with Chopin these days. THD3 14:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Studied with Paderewski??

Rubinstein briefly visited Paderewski and the elder pianist may have coached Rubinstein. But to say Rubinstein studied with him is exaggeration. Rubinstein did study extensively with Heinrich Barth - - also a teacher of Wilhelm Kempff. Barth was quite exacting and whenever Rubinstein did anything Barth didn't approve of, from wrong notes to wayward interpretation, Barth would bite his lip to his beard went horizontal!

[edit] Sarcasm

A gentle reminder, folks, to try to avoid sarcasm. It doesn't help Wiki or anything it's trying to accomplish. (If you're unsure of what sarcasm is:

>:If you have citations, go ahead and add them. Thanks. Grover cleveland 12:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

For the context of that remark, see the Don Lorenzo Perosi talk page. Or don't waste your time and just avoid the sarcasm. LorenzoPerosi1898 13:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Can we add on the article, the correct pronunciation of "Rubinstein"?? Is it:

  • "rubin stine" (rhymes with wine) or...
  • "rubin steen"

????

Rubin"stine". Stein=stone in German. - 62.134.176.208 10:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] grammar

I'd like to correct this sentence, but I'm not sure what is meant by it: "Astor Piazzolla cites a Rubinstein concert staged in Buenos Aires in 1939 as one his first great impressions..." If "of" is added, we get "Astor Piazzolla cites a Rubinstein concert staged in Buenos Aires in 1939 as one of his first great impressions..." but I'm still uncertain what is meant by "impressions." Did Rubinstein make an impression at this concert and, if so, on whom? The public, Piazzolla, or both. Kap42 21:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One of the greatest virtuosos of 20.th century ??

Somebody who did not practice a lot and could not play really difficult pieces is one of the greatest virtuosos ?? Not many Chopin Etudes, no Liszt Etudes, no Rachmaninov 3rd, no Islamey, no whatever has pianistic demands. Maybe he was a great musician, but surely no virtuoso and quite surely not one of the greatest.

Also it's wrong that he did not concertize in Germany after WW II because of the extermination of his family. He did not concertize in Germany already after WW I because he thought Germany was responsible for it. - 62.134.176.208 10:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


Maybe "one of the greatest piano virtuosos" is a little overboard in Rubinstein's case, but it isn't true that he could not play really difficult pieces: he did record Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy and Liszt's B minor sonata; and in his heyday, he played (though, to my knowledge, didn't record) two pieces dedicated to him - Stravinsky's Three Movements from Petrouchka and Villa-Lobos' Rudepoema - which rank among the most difficult in the piano literature. MUSIKVEREIN, 09:15, 22 August, 2007


[edit] Helen Rubinstein connection

Why is the connection Helen Rubinstein -- or the lack thereof -- relevant? I vote it be removed. Brrk.3001 22:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this is not relevant. Rubinstein is not an uncommon name.THD3 (talk) 23:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Einstein

and physicist (and sometimes-musician) Albert Einstein, among others.

Is this sourced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.175.123 (talk) 20:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original Author?

Is there a way to tell who wrote this article originally? I would like to know so I can congratulate their grammatical style. Thanks,

Chris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.77.145 (talk) 02:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Realy Congress Poland?

Congress Poland was liquidated in 1865 by tsar Alexander II of Russia as a punishment for January Uprising. Formally Rubinstein was born in Vistulan Country.--85.221.163.147 (talk) 16:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)