Talk:Art history

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Major points in this edit are:

Is there a significant difference between History of Art vs Art History? Is this semantic nonsense? Or a reference to too fine a distinction between academic subjects? Leading to.... should the two Wiki articles H of A & A.H. be merged? Is our further subdivision "historical develpoment of art" or history of art history"(!!!) going too far?? Can we keep the discussion of Art and Aesthetics apart? Let me know what you think... talk here, at my user page, or email me. Looking forward! Julie Martello 14:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have so far stayed out of the big picture sort of art articles, and have not yet tried to absorb the differences between AH and HofA, but it seems to me that one article should be enough. I'll check it out in more detail. [like actually READ the articles?] Carptrash 15:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
PS I added links in your posting [hope you don't mind] to make my navigation a bit easier. carptrash

I think the 2 main ones should certainly stay separate. I would remove the "study of history of art" section in HofA to here too - of stick it down at the end of the article. Few if any main articles on academic areas of study include as section 2 the history of the academic study itself. Johnbod 00:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there should be a linked reference worked in to aesthetics preferably in para 1, or in the definition. Thxs for the links carptrash!


Johnbod 00:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Done! Jules Julie Martello 15:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Expansion

Hey folks -- I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here, but I've essayed a major expansion of the historical development section, in an attempt to start bridging the gap between Woelfflin and the present day. There are still a few more steps to be filled in, but I hope this is a good start. Sources are mainly the individual entries in the "Biographical Dictionary of Art Historians" and in wiki itself. Best regards, --Javits2000 15:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images of the works of art being analyzed are needed for comprehension

When discussing art history, the images are really vital for comprehension, and even when discussing art historians too.Mark Faraday 04:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

I find the treatment of the history of art within the Wikipedia to be mystifying. It seems as if the history of something is being treated as a subset of a type of art form rather than something which runs across different forms of visual art. Very,very odd!

Anybody coming here would expect an introduction to what can be found on wikipedia - in terms of the history of painting, different art movements etc. Instead we get

  • an article about the study of art history and no introduction to the history of art.
  • a different article about the history of art - with no introduction to what is available on wiki as it is incomplete as to art movements etc
  • To cap it all - on initial inspection - a page identifying the full scope of art history covered by wikipedia appears to be missing from Visual Arts as neither of the articles start by making reference to the category of art history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Art_history

As I said - completely and utterly mystifying...... IMO the current arrangements make research very difficult for people consulting wikipedia for information.

Cosmopolitancats 16:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly Wiki's coverage of art history is somewhat underdeveloped at present, and anyone looking for a comprehensive introduction will still be better served by print sources (for example, a survey text, or the Grove Dictionary of Art.) However, the art history and history of art are prominently cross-referenced, and so far as I can tell history of art does, via a tree structure, lead the user to the individual articles covering most all periods, styles, etc. The category, art history, is linked where categories are always linked in Wiki -- at the bottom of the page. None of this is to say that there is not a great deal of room for improvement, and should you wish to try your hand at making some improvements yourself, I'm sure that your efforts would be most welcome! --Javits2000 19:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bah Humbug! No Wikiproject tagging!

  • Drat! Was expecting a projects link on this talk. Need an answer to a general question of sorts about historical fact.
  • re: Pieter Paul Rubens trying to verify this quote: "His first wife Isabella Brant had died in 1625, taken from him by disease, at the age of thirty-five, in the prime of her life.
Any leads or confirmation would be appreciated. Thanks // FrankB 03:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello, this is rather a late reply, but Isabella died in 1626, I can't recall from what. An easy-to-verify citation here is Kristin Lohse Belkin, Rubens (Art & Ideas series), London: Phaidon, 1998, p. 148. The key source is of course Rubens' letters, the English ed. of which is Ruth Saunders Magurn (tr. & ed.), The Letters of Peter Paul Rubens, Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1955. I have lost my copy so can't check the actual reference, but it would certainly come up in letters to friends. Plague struck Antwerp in 1626, according to Belkin. Cheers. Platinumbuddha 11:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added sections: Divisions by Period and Methodologies

I have added two sections to the article. I believe that the article as it was gives an interesting perspective on the development of Art History as a discipline (the "history of art history," as it were), but it does not offer much information on what an art historian actually does or how the discipline functions.

These two sections help to amend this somewhat, I believe. The first is an attempt to show the divisions into which the discipline is traditionally broken up. This is an important consideration, because art historians are all specialists, and their work focuses not on art as a whole, but on a particular field of study.

Also, the section on Methodologies gives a brief survey of the more popular modes of inquiry used in Art History. I believe this helps to focus the article a bit more on what sorts of things Art Historians are attempting to discover, which goes a long way to describe what Art History is all about.

Thoughts? ~TScott01 15:02 EST, 2-13-07

[edit] Globalise?

Have removed the "globalise" tag as I see no discussion here of how the article might become more "inclusive." But if anyone feels strongly about this, by all means please post your suggestions here! --Javits2000 12:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steps towards improving the article

I've taken a few steps aimed at improving the informative quality of this article; I've merged the "Prominent critical art historians" and "Marxist art historians" sections into one section, and I have added a Sectstub and citations tag to it to request for additional information and verification to be added to the section. Considering the near complete absence of other contemporary political art historians and their background within these two sections, I am tempted to place a neutrality dispute tag over the content as well, as the current revision reeks of political agendas and bias. However, I will wait and see how forthcoming we are in attempting to improve the current state of affairs.

As voluntary editors of this website, I believe we should be more vigilant against these undesired situations, as they can potentially do much to compromise the credibility and encyclopedic value of Wikipedia. I think it is in the best interest of this website if we all work towards avoiding this, hence these steps. Kalamrir (talk) 10:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the section header. One could indeed add ones for Fascist or Nationalist art historians, but no one has yet done so, and in recent decades the Maxists were more prominent. These people were very happy to describe themselves as Marxist - see their articles. If you want to improve the article, which certainly needs it, I would suggest adding instead of subtracting. What do other people think? Does the section heading "Marxist art historians" "reek of political agendas and bias" or not? Johnbod (talk) 12:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
My "subtracting" of the article, as you put it, oddly enough is a direct result of my knowledge of standing Wikpedia guidelines regarding the strict neutrality of article content, and subsequently also of the avoidance of situations that can either invite or imply political bias and agendas. Since the aforementioned guidelines appear to rather strenuously disagree with your assertion that the disputed header is non-problematic, steps must be taken to ensure it is rendered both more objective by nature as well as capable of covering a (much) more comprehensive type of relevant content.
Your argument that "these people were very happy to describe themselves as Marxist" is in no way relevant to the matter at hand. Please inform yourself on which Wikipedia guidelines are flexible, and which are absolute and non-negotionable. In both cases, you'll find them clearly defined as such. Kalamrir (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid you have misunderstood these policies. They do not say that all references to ideological viewpoints must be removed - far from it. I suggest you read them again carefully. Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
You seem to face significant challenges in interpreting my motive behind these edits correctly. There will be no removal of "all references" to ideological viewpoints. The farthest thing from it -- the aim is first of all to preserve the content and to have it better sourced, and secondly to merge it into a single section that will gives equal attention to all notable ideological viewpoints. More extensive coverage of any one particular ideological viewpoint instead belongs in more dedicated articles, as per the guidelines covered in Wikipedia:Manual of Style.
A single viewpoint currently is overrepresented in comparison to the other ideological viewpoints which meet Wikipedia's requirements of notability, and in the interests of the article's informative quality this is an issue to be addressed as soon as possible . I again invite you to better inform yourself on the guidelines that I have linked to both in my first reply and in this one. Kalamrir (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Again you are misinterpreting the guidelines. There are no "viewpoints" represented - there is completely neutral coverage (none of it by me) of the several of the most significant schools of art history, but so far not all. I notice this appears to be the first article you have edited that is not about a video game. Perhaps you could explain what other schools of art history you think should be covered? Johnbod (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
You are underscoring the notion that you indeed appear quite challenged in interpreting the rationale behind these edits (which does not spring from this editor himself, but from Wikipedia's guidelines). It is a bit odd that while my efforts are clearly explained as being aimed at not only preserving the content, but to also have it better sourced and subsequently integrated with other content relevant to this part of the article, your displayed mentality thus far has been dismissive, mildly unconstructive and also seemingly aimed at preserving the inclusion of the word "Marxist" in the header.
Secondly, you also underscore the notion that the revision you are in favor of can and will invite accusations of political bias to this article. What other schools of art history should be included in my personal opinion is not relevant to the issue at hand either. I shall leave this to individuals who are more knowledgeable on the subject of art history than I am. Instead, the issue at hand is that one particular viewpoint is being overrepresented in a way that does not befit an article ment to be describing all relevant viewpoints in a comprehensive and succinct manner, rather than describing one specific viewpoint in detail. Such is to be done by dedicated articles. Kalamrir (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence in lead

Hi. I removed "Works of art criticism and of art theory frequently have been the pivots upon which the understanding of art history has turned" from the lead. This statement seems to be left over from the earliest version of this article, when it was still trying to find form and meaning. Now, keeping it at the end of the second paragraph contrasts with the argument presented in the third, and seems to suggest that theory and criticism are the two major points around which the discourse of art history revolves. Certainly, both have their place. However, as the current article shows, there are a number of distinct approaches used by art historians and specialists in other fields looking in that shape the study of art history. Therefore, I removed the statement since it adds little to the current form. Feel free to discuss. --Stomme (talk) 07:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)