Talk:Arise (album)

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 Arise (album) is currently a good article nominee. Anyone who has not contributed significantly to this article may review it according to the good article criteria to decide whether or not to list it as a good article, as outlined on the nominations page.

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Date: 06:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
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Article requirements:
YesY A relatively complete infobox
YesY Cover art in the infobox
YesY A lead section giving an overview of the album
YesY At least one section of informative prose other than lead
YesY A track listing (for "start" class), containing track lengths & composers (for "B" class)
YesY A list of personnel (specific band members (for "start" class), guest musicians and technical (for "B" class)
YesY Categorisation at least by artist and year

Although I have assessed this as a B according to the criterion of the project (we cannot assess beyond that), I would like to suggest that the lead section should be expanded to meet the guidelines at WP:LEAD. Cheers. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, an attempt to improve articles related to heavy metal music. Please participate by visiting the project page for more details on the projects.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh)

Article requirements:
YesY A relatively complete infobox
YesY Cover art in the infobox
YesY A lead section giving an overview of the album
YesY At least one section of informative prose other than lead
YesY A track listing (for "start" class), containing track lengths & composers (for "B" class)
YesY A list of personnel (specific band members (for "start" class), guest musicians and technical (for "B" class)
YesY Categorisation at least by artist and year

Although I have assessed this as a B according to the criterion of the project (we cannot assess beyond that), I would like to suggest that the lead section should be expanded to meet the guidelines at WP:LEAD. Cheers. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sepultura - Arise.jpg

Image:Sepultura - Arise.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

What's currently being done to the Sepultura album pages by Musicanindustrial (sp.?) is really excellent work. One minor niggle... how do you go about condensing all the references from a single source to a single line in the ref list? My Wiki-fu is a little weak when it comes to stuff like this. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how to do that either... Would be thankful if someone taught me how to! Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genre Capitalization

There seems to be an edit war going on regarding the capitalization of the 2nd genre in the list. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Album#genre this should NOT be capitalized. Please post below if you disagree so we can get this resolved. BeastmasterGeneral 19:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not what we're arguing about...We're arguing whether it be commas or line breaks. WP:Album#Genre says, "Genres, delimited by commas..."
RandySavageFTW (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah.. I see now that I take a closer look. I don't have a strong opinion either way but it should really be discussed here rather than through comments on an edit war. BeastmasterGeneral 21:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
A) On Marth 17th 2008, at 18:17, I changed the "Genre" tag on the music box the preferred form. I wrote on the edit summary: Featured articles on Wikipedia such as the NIN or the Metallica page list the music genres like this. If anyone disagrees, provide a good rationale before changing.
B) On May 4rth, 2008, at 15:41, user RandySavageFTW changed the "Genre" tag, without providing any form of explanation. I did another edit at 22:09, and wrote on the edit summary: Some featured thrash articles on Wikipedia such as Metallica and Slayer have the "Genre" tag presented this way. If anyone disagrees about this, please provide rationale. Let me emphasize this:
B.1) These are featured articles - or, the best articles produced on Wikipedia. Interestingly, these "best of Wikipedia" articles have the "Genre" tag formatting the way I proposed them for Sepultura.
B.2) Sepultura is (mainly) a thrash metal band, so I reasoned that their article should have some similarities with other major thrash bands (Anthrax, Megadeth), i.e. the "Genre" tag.
B.3) So, if RandySavageFTW wished to change the "Genre" tag again, at least he could as well write something to justify it.
C) At 22:35 he undid my edit, and again provided no explanation. So I also undid his edit, and wrote on the summary: Didn't provide rationale before changing. Vandalism? He undid my edit again and wrote: Don't know what you['re talking about]. (He wrote the same thing of his edits on the Chaos A.D. article.)
Yes, he knows what I'm talking about. If you visit RandySavageFTW talk page, you'll notice it's not the first time he has engaged on a edit war over the issue at hand. Check out the "Please stop" and "April 2008" subsections. He was a prior history of this type of activity. That's why I wrote on the edit summary, "Yes you do. Visit your own talkpage, under "Please stop" section".
D) Yet again he undid my revision, without further explanation. And, again, I undid his revision, and added to the summary, "Again?"
E) Another "undid" from his part, and wrote: "rv vandalism?" Cute. I'm the vandal?
I hope I have provided sufficient evidence for my case.
Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Template:Infobox_Musical_artist#Genre says that commas or line breaks are ok. I would tend to agree that we should follow the example set by the larger bands in this genre. There doesn't seem to be an official rule either way. BeastmasterGeneral 14:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not an artist, though. It's an album. And the link I posted says commas.

RandySavageFTW (talk) 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Savage brings up a good point here. While the "big four" thrash bands have genres deliminated by line breaks on the artist page, the album pages seem to all have the genres deliminated by commas. So in the interest of consistency, commas should be used here but line breaks on the main Sepultura page. What do you think Musicaindustrial? BeastmasterGeneral 19:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, he has a point. These band's "genre" infoboxes on their main pages have line breaks, and individual albums have commas. Although this edit war left a sour taste in my mouth, I have to agree for consistency's sake. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I considered this article for a review. Comments coming soon. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 08:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

comments
  • Add United States after Tampa, Florida
    • Done.
  • 52: 20 then remove (min/sec)
    • Done.
  • Pipe link Roadrunner to Roadrunner records
    • Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
      • Like this [[Roadrunner Records|Roadrunner]]. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Where does that pipe linking take place? In the Infobox, in the intro paragraph or both? Musicaindustrial (talk) 14:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Usually in the infobox, per WP:ALBUMS. --Efe (talk) 05:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
            • Done.
  • All Music Guide's new name is Allmusic
    • Done.
  • Expand the lead at least to two paragraphs to conform WP:LEAD
  • Arise is
    • Done.
  • Change LP to studio album or album
    • Done.
  • by American? English? Australian? trash metal band Sepultura.
    • Done (Brazillian thrash metal band).
  • …the album has sold….
    • Done.
  • Spell out 1
    • Done.
  • considered
    • Done.
  • Link death in death/trash
    • Done.
  • Who is Andreas Kisser?
    • Done (lead guitarrist).
  • What is Beneath the Remains?
    • Done (their previous album).
  • References go after the punctuation, like ref 2
    • Done.
  • Who is Igor Cavalera?
    • Done (Sepultura's drummer).
  • Do not include linking laden to groove (music); groove only.
    • Done.
  • Who is Max Cavalera?
    • Rhythm guitar player.
      • Please identify him. Non-familiar of the subject like me can achieve smooth flow of reading if those are given context. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Who or what is The Young Gods, Ministry? and Einstürzende Neubauten?
    • Three industrial music groups.
      • Identify them. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
        • "The Young Gods, Ministry and Einstürzende Neubauten were already part of Sepultura's listening habits, and slight touches of industrial music can be traced through the use of samples and sound effects." I've written this sentence in a way that implies that these three groups are industrial music artists. Musicaindustrial (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
  • What is Morbid Visions?
    • Sepulturas's first album. Morbid Visions is pipe-linked so, I figured that would suffice. Is that enought? Musicaindustrial (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Production information must go before the musical style section.
    • Sorry, I don't understand what you mean (2).
      • The section "pruduction values" (which could also be shortened to production) should go before the "musical style" section. I mean, the arrangment. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comma after August 1990
    • Done.
  • Link Florida then again add United States for context
    • Done.
  • Scott Burns reprised his role as a producer and engineer, and now Sepultura were recording at his home base… error in tense, I think
    • What would you suggest?
      • and now Sepultura were recording at his home base… This part.
  • Where is Morrisound situated?
    • In August 1990, the band travelled to Florida, USA to start working on Arise. Scott Burns reprised his role as their producer and engineer, and now Sepultura were recording at his home base, Morrisound, a studio equipped to capture their music style.
      • Ah, Ok. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • …to capture their music style… sounds POVic.
    • What would you suggest (2)?
      • "a studio equipped to capture their music style". I am not sure on how to fix this but this part is kinda unclear and tends to be POVic. Was the studio equipped to capture their music? --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Link the dollar sign
    • Done.
  • …which helped explain…
    • Done.
  • Any more information about the production?
    • Not really.
  • Identification for Obituary and Sadus
    • Done (extreme metallers).
  • Typo in wordwide
    • Done.
  • …that would span to two full years…
    • Done.
  • In January 1991,
    • Done.
  • Rock in Rio 2[7], a performance watched by a 70,000-strong crowd. The context given is not complete. Where did RiR2 took place? Strong here is POV.
  • Before heading out of their home country… where is their home country?
  • Where is São Paulo?
    • A major brazillian city.
      • Identify it. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • When did they performed at Praça Charles Miller?
    • "Praça" is the portuguese equivalent of a public square.
  • spell out MPs
    • I respectfully object to that. If I spell out MPs, it will disrupt the flow of the text.
      • Many do not know what MP is if its left unspelled. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Local MPs expected 10,000 to attend, but 30,000 showed up, making crowd management nearly impossible. Direct source…
    • Sorry, I don't understand what you mean (3).
      • Needs a direct inline source. A source must follow this line. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
        • This sentence and the other two following it are taken from the same source - see footnote [10]. Musicaindustrial (talk) 14:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Who are Sacred Reich and Heathen?
    • Two thrash metal bands. Wouldn't pipe-linking the band's names suffice? Or an extra info is really needed?
      • just say thrash metal band to give context and somehow establish relationship. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • What is Kerrang!? An American magazine? British?.
    • Done.
  • What is the relevance of becoming a cover story? Of long features?
  • Is Under Siege a song? Do not italicize; instead, use quotation marks. (note: the navigational box of this band needs formatting. The entries for the singles must not be in italics. Italics for album; quotation marks for songs.)
    • No it is a home video which and, from what I gather, is generally italicized on Wikipedia.
      • Ah, Ok. I thought its a song. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Who are Napalm Death, Sacred Reich and Sick of It All?
  • There is no information about the critical reception of the album? How about the reviews of Kerrang! and Allmusic? Are their any awards?
    • The album was released in 1991, so it'll be difficult to find internet reviews written at the same time as it's release. And awards? None that I know of, 'til now...
      • No. Contemporary reviews. You added Allmusic and Kerrang in the "professional reviews" entry in the infobox, so there must be a review. At least those two. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Some information about the release of the album? How about the remastered release?
  • This formatting, (music: Sepultura, lyrics: M. Cavalera), is not readable.
    • Done - I've erased that formatting.
  • Do not include (Scott Burns mix) in the quotation, it's not part of the title.
    • I'm pretty sure its written that way, but I'll check my Arise CD and I'll get back to you.
      • Done.
  • Singles releases must be expanded.
    • I've obliterated the "Singles" micro-section. I'm trying to do the same thing as the Roots (Sepultura album) infobox "Singles" information, but I'm having difficulty editing it.
  • When Third World Posse was released?
    • Not relevant to this article anymore.
  • Pipe link EP to extended play.
  • delimit vocals and rhythm guitar with a comma
    • Done.
  • Tables would be better if written to prose.
    • You mean the tables in the in the "Chart positions" section? I think tables are a faster way to acess this sort of information...
      • Tables are used if there are a lot of entries. It would be better to write them in prose. Then, you can add their the reviews. Its like the general response so that the section will be huge. --Efe (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Remove "See also" section.

That's all for now. Let's see the effect if these all are addressed or given proper objections. I'll put the article on hold and will pass or fail the article per GA criteria. You may drop me a message for concerns. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 06:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Efe, I've finished my editing. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Not yet. I browsed through and saw some neglected informations. For instance, the lead says: "It was considered by critics as the peak of Sepultura's death/thrash phase." which I cannot find in the text below and is even unsourced. There are a couple of reviews in the infobox but nothing I can find in the text below, like what are their opinions? YOu can probaby add this in the commercial section, like changing the header title to "reception" or other related title. Also, the second and third paragraph of the lead is too much in detail while it does not or establish notability or importance to the album itself. Why is the style of the album not included in the lead? I think that's all. If these are addressed, I pass this to GA. Good luck. --Efe (talk) 09:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not convinced this is anywhere near GA status. There is plenty of unrelated information: "During their break they went to record a cover version of the Dead Kennedys song...culled from the Under Siege video were later collected on the Australian-only EP Third World Posse (1992)." can be completely deleted. The touring info too contains a lot of detail unnecessary or the lay reader. "Tragedies aside, Sepultura's three-month tour with thrash metal grups Sacred Reich and Heathen was a resounding critical success"" doesn't even resemble a professional tone of writing and the article is mostly incomplete; where is the critical reception? If the band made it to so many music magazines, why isn't anything what they wrote included? indopug (talk) 18:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

indopug, I'll adress the issues you've brought up in due time, although I have to say that the tone of your judgement on the quality of this article ("I'm not convinced this is anywhere near GA status" or "doesn't even resemble a professional tone of writing") seems harsh and unecessary. Maybe a bit more of constructive criticism next time? Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Replied on your talkpage. indopug (talk) 20:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Still watching the page. Go ahead in improving this. I will not close the GA for a week. --Efe (talk) 01:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)