Talk:Apple pie/Archive

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

American?

is apple pie really that american? appletrees didn't even grow in america until the europeans brought them over :S and the english were already making pies of the weirdest ingredients so how could they forgot to try apple? just a googlesearch shows that a dutch painting dated 1626 shows an apple pie. also apple pie is the most popular pie where i live and eaten alot. i always thought of the saying 'as american as apple pie' as somewhat sarcastic, so can anyone maybe explain/clarify what is so american about apple pie? --62.251.90.73 14:29, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • It may not be logical, in the sense that apple pie probably did originate somewhere else, but the phrase, "as American as apple pie" is a genuine phrase, used by genuine Americans in their speech, and there is almost never any sense of irony or sarcasm in their usage.
    • I imagine that by the 18th or 19th century apples were being grown all over the country, in enormous quantities. And Americans were enormous pie-eaters, consuming far more of them than their English forebears, for example. Since apples, dried or fresh, were available most of the year, it seems only natural that more apple pies were baked and consumed than any other kind. Hence the phrase.Hayford Peirce 00:15, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Mock pie, cobblers, etc

Really? An apple pie has apples in it? Please write more than the most blatantly obvious. --mav

  • Well, there has been a recipe around for decades now called "mock apple pie", in which Ritz Crackers are substituted for sliced apples. I wouldn't bother to make one myself, but I have been given them over the years, and you would be amazed at how much they look like, and taste like, genuine apple pies.Hayford Peirce 00:15, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

lol Mav... it is pretty blindlingly obvious isn't it :) I've tried to improve it a little... KJ

What's the difference between apple pie and apple cobbler? -- Zoe

I know you wrote that so long ago you don't care any more, but a pie has pastry and a cobbler has cake or streusely topping on it... apple crumble isn't a pie either :) KJ 04:31, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Page Protection

This page has been protected due to an ongoing edit war. Both sides of the conflict should air their issues here and try to figure out a way to resolve the conflict. This should be done in a civil manor discussing particular disagreements not personal issues. Arminius 12:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The way to resolve the conflict is for you to unblock the page. You acted in an unacceptable manner by blocking it. Chameleon 12:26, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I reverted Chameleon's additions to the article because they were POV. Changing the picture caption to read "Apple pie presented as All-American" as opposed to "Apple pie", and adding "As American as apple pie" is a common saying, which could be seen as ironic, given that apple pie is not particularly American. It may be that "American" in this context does not mean "invented in America" or suchlike, but instead "apple pie" is used as a symbol of what is folksy and wholesome, and therefore "American". This could be compared to the use of the expression "that's not Christian", which should not be taken literally but instead means "that is cruel or immoral behaviour". is an attempt to introduce anti-American bias and uses weasel words such as: "which could be seen as", "It may be that", "This could be compared to" etc.
The article already says that apple pie did not originate in America, and adequately explains where the phrase "As American as apple pie" comes from.
Based on this, I do not believe that these additions should be included in the article.
Darrien 12:31, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)
It says nothing bad about America at all. It even implies that America is wholesome Chameleon 12:41, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I disagree. They come across as snarky and cheap.Icundell
Who asked you? Ah, I did. Hahah. Anyway, if you think the wording is harsh, change it. Oh wait, you can't because Arminius has protected his version. Chameleon 13:07, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And it is quite rightly protected,and should stay so until all sides calmed down and start thinking rationally.Icundell
This entry was first posted on Arbitration. I'd be inclined to suggest that the two parties agree to a factual correction to one statement, so that it reads as follows: "As American as apple pie" is a common saying <in the United States> due to this association.
The article as it stands is fine except for the incorrect implication that "As American as apple pie" is something that a non-American might say, or that apple pies, of all things, are generally regarded as having anything to do with America. Indeed the phrase most usually appears as "As American as mom and apple pie." I think we can all agree that the statement is even more puzzling in this form, unless interpreted in an ironic sense. Moms are not particularly American. Well mine isn't.
Having said that, I think Charles Matthews has hit the nail on the head. How about moving all the American stuff into a section titled "Apple pie in American culture."
I don't think Arminius should have reverted the last-but-one version, which provided a pretty good analysis of a puzzling saying that always bemuses non-Americans: "As American as apple pie" is a common saying, which could be seen as ironic, given that apple pie is not particularly American. It may be that "American" in this context does not mean "invented in America" or suchlike, but instead "apple pie" is used as a symbol of what is folksy and wholesome, and therefore "American". This could be compared to the use of the expression "that's not Christian", which should not be taken literally but instead means "that is cruel or immoral behaviour". --Minority Report 13:11, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Popular in the Netherlands too

Apple pie is very popular in the Netherlands too. Americans did not invent or introduced it to the Netherlands. You already plagiarized Santa Claus from our Saint Nicholas. Stop it! :-) Andries 12:16, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is clear that apple pie is in no way American. When I clarified this in the article, two Americans got offended at such an important symbol being tarnished with unAmericanness and started reverting. This is unacceptable. Chameleon 12:27, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, that's not clear. Can there not be a section on American apple pie, though? All it would require would be a heading such as 'The apple pie in American culture'. Charles Matthews 12:31, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is not possible to use that suggestion because the page is protected. Also, I'd say it is fairly clear. You may as well say "as American as pasta". Chameleon 12:39, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mmm! Dutch Apple Pie is my favourite - much nicer with the addition of spice. Now of course Apple Pie is not inherently American, and that needs to be emphasised. But some discussion also needs to be added to explain why it has become an Amrican icon. Jeff Knaggs 12:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Huh?

Hey, why the US flag? Haven't you ever heard the phrase "As Australian as apple pie"? Seriously, what is the reason for turning an article on as world-wide a food as apple pie into gung-ho jingoism? The page points out that the apple pie existed for centuries before America did - in one line - and the rest of the article is about American recipes. Either present a less biased point of view - NOW - or allow every other country that makes apple pie to write as much on their apple pie recipes. As to the phrase "As American as Apple pie"" indicating how american it is, the phrase is as American as mom and apple pie. Are you going to bias the "Mother" page in the same way? Oh, and the idea of 'The apple pie in American culture' is a good one, it would allow the article to remain unbiased while allowing some recognition of the apple pie's importance as a symbol of the U.S.

Oh, and since New Zealand is known as "The land of Rugby, Racing, and Beer", I'm off to alter all the articles on beer - can't have it referring to anywhere else in the world, now, can we? :) Grutness 12:37, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree. If others don't — I'm owing pea soup for the Finns. P.S. Don't you dare to try stick an "American"-label on my mother. --kooo 07:21, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

Apple Pie Hegemony

I add my vote to those who think it sucks that some yank has tried to colonise apple pies as they have with the exceptionally sucky photograph. (I checked out the site that the photo was stolen from. It says "Apples are an all-American success story". Pass the sick-bag, Gladys.) --Tagishsimon (talk)

This really is childish. GROW UP

Good grief.

The problem is not bias, per se, but exceptionally poor structuring. The article is simply not encyclopeadic in any way shape or form. Unprotect it and then re-write it: The article should:

  1. present a proper history of the dish from Chaucer (and earlier if known) to the modern day;
  2. present an consideration of the dish in different nations, including a discussion of its metaphorical power in modern America. (But look up Dutch apple dishes);
  3. present a list of cultural and literary references, preferably with an entirely gratuitous picture of Alyson Hannigan; Icundell 12:54, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Childish how? Because it is a trivial subject? I agree, which makes the fact it has been protected more ridulous and bigoted. The importance of thing is in precedent: if we allow Americans to get away with twisting this article, they will be braver when they make POV edits to political subjects, as they already do. It is important to have a zero-tolerance policy on this. Chameleon 13:05, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Childish because this is not about American cultural imperialism, but poor writing and over-reaction. Icundell
I must seriously disagree with you there. You would never find this controversy at Meringue. Is that just coincidence? No, it's because it is not an American symbol. Do not be naïve and do not call me childish. Chameleon 13:22, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your behaviour invites the charge, but I was aiming at BOTH sides. Calm down, think rationally. Bull-headed yank meets overwrought BritIcundell
What behaviour exactly? De-Americanising the article? Being annoying by a sysop abusing his powers? Chameleon 13:41, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Behaving like a boorish oaf, unable to maintain civility in discourse.Icundell
Indeed. First Iraq, then Apple Pies. What next? Lego? --Tagishsimon (talk)

Unprotected

I think protection was premature. I'm sure that we can all come to a compromise solution. I've added a new caption to the image - is that acceptable? Also I think the page should be reorganised and have a section on american apple pie. Another image is needed as well. One with the pie cut open to show the apples - then we can put the one with the flag in the American section. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 13:10, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So that everyone's suggestions can be taken used, I've created a separate draft page that anyone non-bigoted can work on. Once the silly protection is removed, the content of the draft will be moved there. Talk:Apple pie/draft. <childish comment>hahah, beat ya, Arminius</childish comment> Chameleon 13:16, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That's a very good re-write that I would have no trouble supporting, except that you do not seem to know what 'ironic' means. It is not ironic, it is paradoxical (a result of it being a metaphorical, rather than literal, statement) Icundell
The version as edited by Minory Report is there or there abouts, IMOIcundell
oh sorry, I had just created an article apple pie/temp Can somebody delete it? Andries 13:19, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Indeed the page is not unprotected until the conflict is resolved. Chameleon you need to seriously correct your behavior pattern of how you deal with other users. Once the conflict is resolved the page will then be unprotected (see above). Thank you. Arminius 13:22, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You mean my zero-tolerance of American bigots and short treatment of them? Thanks, but I won't be stopping that, any more that I will stop correcting typos or reverting advertising vandals. Chameleon 13:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Uh oh, now it's escalated to a protect/unprotect war. This is really very silly. Apple pies are not American. Can we at least all agree on that? The picture of the apple pie with an American flag should be accurately labelled. Something like "Apple pies have strong associations with patriotism in American culture. --Minority Report 13:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


I wont unprotect it again, but I don't feel it should be protected, so if another admin wants to unprotect it then go ahead as far as I am concerned. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 13:30, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Don't worry about unprotecting it just yet. Let's wait until the draft article is really good first. Chameleon 13:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The content doesn't concern me, the point is to get an agreement between chameleon and darrien so they will not edit war. Arminius 13:33, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Liar! Liar! Chameleon 13:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Unproteted (for good this time)

The page has been now unprotected and user:Chameleon blocked for this his last personal attack I will except. Edit as you will, I was already gotten assurances from user:Darrien that he will work productively with everyone.

I've unblocked Chameleon. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 18:21, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In that case may I recommend that the version aat Talk:Apple pie/draft be accepted as the working draft and it replace the 'live' article?Icundell 13:49, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Icundell, I support this replacement. Andries 14:04, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I concur Martin TB 14:22, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
But please, do not present that jingo American picture so prominently with a text as if it were neutral. Can somebody please find a more neutral pic? Thanks Andries 14:29, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't exactly support it yet. The caption should be something like "Apple pie with baseball equipments and an American flag" or it is still going too far into the jingo stuff. Revth 14:43, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like the American apple pie picture, but I think it's better used to illustrate the American culture section. Trying to pass it off as "An apple pie" and the like seem a bit jingoistic to me. As someone has pointed out, the picture was originally on some jingoistic website and its name gives away its extreme cultural bias. --Minority Report 15:02, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As a UK user, I think that if the picture is in the "Apple Pie in American Culture" section, and is described as such, there is no problem. I think that the picture serves to highlight how the dessert is viewed in America, in the same way that roast beef and Yorkshire puddings are viewed as the archetypal dish of the UK.Rje 19:19, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)