Talk:Anti-villain

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 20 July 2007. The result of the discussion was No consensus.

GIR from Invader Zim? Is that a joke, or did I miss something? Someone please confirm. 68.42.24.198 05:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing that because he works for the evil alien invaders he's still relatively easy-going and friendly? I dunno.--CyberGhostface 05:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems like several of the "examples" given are actually anti-heroes, not anti-villains - Tony Montana, for example. An anti-villain is not even likely to be the protagonist of a story - more likely to be the antagonist of an anti-hero. (An anti-hero is a protagonist who isn't a "good" character, so an anti-villain would be a non-villainous antagonist, or someone using morally questionable methods on the side of good and against the interests of a protagonist.) GIR isn't an anti-villain, but I think... what's his name, Dib? The kid obsessed with bringing Zim down?... is one. As it stands, I don't think this article is a good one - the list really needs to be vetted and justified, with all the anti-heroes removed from it. 4.131.36.134 09:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Fallout

I'd say the Master from the original CRPG Fallout qualifies as a classic anti-villain. His goals were the forced evolution of the human race, but the consequences included enslavement and mass murder. He was high on ideals, but his methods (and, tragically, the true consequences of his actions) were blatantly heinous.

Just as an anti-hero is a hero that lacks certain heroic qualities and is not unambiguously good because of doubtful motivations, an anti-villain is a villain that is not unambiguously evil because his motivations can be quite good. -- 62.143.91.153 13:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well then, in all honesty, wouldn't that make an anti-hero and an anti-villain the exact same thing? Calgary 23:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
No, I think more like opposite corners of a square, with hero and villain occupying the other two corners:
                Good motivation     Bad motivation
  Bad actions   Anti-villain        Villain
  Good actions  Hero                Anti-hero
JulesH 10:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, See, a Villian would cause a genocide to rid himself of 'infidles', a Hero would save people for the good of the world, or just for the thrill of adventure, whereas an Anti-Hero may be overly violent in taking down a villian (i.e. nearly killing anyone in his way), and an Anti-Villian, may be trying to conquere a world, in hopes of a complete unity. ChaosVonGin (talk) 03:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

While it's pretty accurate, the difficulty with this square can be found in the fact that while Good Action and Bad Action is a line usually easily drawn in fiction, 'good motivation' and 'bad motivation' are often highly opinionated. Harley Quinn hyenaholic (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marcus Brutus as an Anti-Villain

Shoulden't Marcus Brutus from William Shakespeare's "Julius Caeser" be added to the list of Anti-villains?

[edit] Anti-villain/anti-hero

"An anti-villain is a protagonist or antagonist who engages in villainous, controversial acts in order to advance heroic goals"

I believe this is one of Wiki's own definitions for an anti-hero. This article sucks. 66.167.146.145 15:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that was one of the important arguments at the AfD listed above. --Eyrian 15:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The List

I've removed the list. When this was nominated for deletion, one of the reasons that it was kept was that we would remove any unsourced entries. See List of fictional anti-heroes for how the list should be run, if at all. You need some sort of professional source (I.E. reviews, interviews, etc) that explicitly refer to your character as an antihero. Your claim might be disputed, but at least you have an external source to back it up. Just adding your favorite character because you think he fits the criteria counts as original research and is not tolerated here.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zuko To From Avatar

Wouldnt He Also Classsify or is He a ByronicHero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.241.26.65 (talk) 14:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I suppose if you could find a legit source making reference to him as an antihero, we could include it.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Everything in this article describes either an anti-hero or a villian. It doesn't matter the extremity of the crime an 'anti-hero' commits or how sympathetic a villian is, they are still either a villian or an anti-hero.

If an anti-villian were the reverse of an anti-hero, wouldn't they be someone who say, gives money to hobos so they can buy crack? Or plants a forest to drive out farmers?

By this article's logic, I could effectively take any anti-hero or sympathetic villian and say they're an anti-villian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aydsavenger (talk • contribs) 06:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it either. I nominated the article for deletion but it IS a valid term apparently...--CyberGhostface (talk) 12:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] anti-villain?

I guess I just assumed it was someone who was a villain, but lacked villainous qualities - like Ned Flanders, or maybe Lumbergh from "Office Space." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.240.196 (talk) 07:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the most accurate summation of an anti-villain so far - although there is no clear cut textbook definition of what one is exactly. Most of the the discussion on this page, and the content of previous versions of the article seem to be made under the impression that anti-villain is just another term for anti-hero. --88.108.183.202 (talk) 20:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Basically, all it boils down to is whether or not the character in question is a protagonist or antagonist. e.g. in Watchmen, Rorschach is the primary protagonist and therefore considered an anti-hero, Veidt is the story's antagonist and therefore considered an anti-villain (although personally, I think the term isn't widely recognised, barely ever used, and redundant, since sympathetic villain overlaps most of the criteria anyway) regardless of them both having supposedly good intentions/motivations yet using questionable methods to meet their aims. --88.108.183.202 (talk) 20:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Broader definition ?

IMHO, the article should include an alternate definition of an anti-villain, as a character who employs questionable means to achieve ends he perceives as being noble, and considers himself a hero. Ozymandias is, in my mind, a perfect example of such a character. Wedineinheck (talk) 12:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Find a source calling him such and you can add him.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

I'm confused as to what constitutes an appropriate source to list someone as an anti-villain. I listed Javert, which was deleted for lack of citation. Does the source have to say "he is an anti-villain," or merely something which comes down to that in the end? (I.e. he's the antagonist of the protagonist Jean Valjean, but then JVJ is a criminal and Javert uses legal means to pursue him, besides exhibiting personal nobility and bravery.) He's actually very similar to th eonly example who has not been removed, Jon Kavanaugh. --Roscelese (talk) 02:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

You need a source calling him an antivillain. Saying he counts as one based on what he does in the show/movie is original research.--CyberGhostface (talk) 12:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gaius Baltar an anti-villan?

in my best interoperation, Gaius Baltar from TNS of battlestar galactica seems to be an archetypal anti-villan

Find a source calling him such.--CyberGhostface (talk) 12:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)