Talk:Anti-Malay racism

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 7 November 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.
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Contents


[edit] NPOV

A lot of what the article says, seems to be from a personal opinion. Most of the information in the sub sections would also appear to be in some sort of "essay format". Daily Rubbings 14:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


"Since then, the status of Malays in Singapore has become no better than their counterparts in Malaysia ..." No reference, no basis. Who the heck wrote this? Sweeping statement. PS: Yeah, looks like a high school essay format. Eterna2 07:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Also in the Malaysia section please refer to the May 13 incident, this section is incorrect.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.94.115.234 (talk • contribs)
Wikipedia policy states that any material that is not reliably sourced can be removed. On the other hand, material that is reliably sourced must be proven to be incorrect - we can't just say 'trust me, it's wrong'. --Merbabu 05:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


As a Malaysian (with half Singaporean blood) who knows Malaysia's "education procedures", I have to remove the silly and unresonable statement:-

Since then, the status of Malays in Singapore has become no better than their counterparts in Malaysia, where ethnic Malays are given special privileges to improve their lives by getting scholarships to further their studies in university so that they can contribute a lot to the Malaysian economy. <hidden text>Thus, this has demonstrated the Singaporean Malays' inability to contribute much to the Singaporean economy, being the bottom rung of the Singaporean society, and on the average, having poorer education than the Chinese, Indian and other ethnic communities <hidden text>

The Malaysia's scholarsip part is under "Singapore", which is so "silly" written and untrue - please prove it with fact! The hidden part also is so controversially written. This article is like reading "opposition party's bulletin", full with provocation without basis!! - Jay 20:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the user who wanted put "Singaporean economy" but mistakenly typed up "Malaysian economy". Is it true that the Malays cannot receive scholarship in Singapore unless they change their racial identity (say to being an "Arab")? --203.15.122.35 07:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not true. Singapore gives scholarships based on merit, unlike Malaysia where scholarships are given based on race and religion. InfernoXV 10:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Look which retard wrote"It all started when the Chinese demonstrators, who were supporters of the winning Democratic Action Party and Gerakan in the elections, headed through the Malay district of Kampung Baru, jeering at the inhabitants." This is a downright lie! The offical explanation is that the communist party started the riot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.167.198 (talk) 12:49, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jugdment versus prejudice

At the moment, the lead section seems to suggest that any judgment (even if such judgment is unrelated to the fact that a person is a Malay) against the Malay is anti-Malay racism. Not all judgments made against any Malay is necessarily an anti-Malay sentiment. I believe prejudice is a better word because prejudice means judgment before the fact. It qualifies what judgment could be considered as racism. __earth (Talk) 13:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

Merbabu, why did you remove the edition to the S'pore section? __earth (Talk) 10:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

See my two edit summaries. The onus is on you to show how this is relevant, important, and actually even racist. --Merbabu 11:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
allegation of discrimination, as stated by BJ Habibie, former president of Indonesia. It's cited. __earth (Talk) 11:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
A former (and poorly respected) president of another country makes yet another of his famous ill-thought accusations/comments, and we need to report it on wikipedia? It's not racism, simply and accusation, and a fairly insignificant one. How is it important? It's just an accusation. Find some real info to mention - or delete the article. The whole article is weak. --Merbabu 11:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It is an accusation yes but remember, Wikipedia threshold of inclusion is verifiability, not truth, as stated in Wikipedia:Verifiability. Whatever our opinion of Lee Kuan Yew and BJ Habibie is irrelevant. Anyway, it created a huge furor in Singapore then. __earth (Talk) 11:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
So, in your opinion the threshold for wikipedia is if a President of a country said it and we can verify it? Are you kidding? Find something decent to put in the article - you are right, opinions of those those two are irrelevant. --Merbabu 11:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I said our opinion of them (about poorly respected, etc), not their opinion. __earth (Talk) 12:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I know - and I'm saying their opinions are irrelevant. You have not established how their opinions are relevant. Do you suggest we put into wikipedia their opinions on any topic, even if there opinions don't reflect reality? --Merbabu 12:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I have established the relevancy. But if you are unconvinced, I've added more citation from the FEER and the IHT on the issue of loyalty and discrimination. __earth (Talk) 12:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no relevance. The opinion of a former leader does not make it relevant. It should thus be removed. --Merbabu 12:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Alas, you say it's irrelevant, I say it's relevant. I've noticed this discussion has turned into a yes-no-yes-no format. Maybe a presence of a neutral third party detached from the Singaporean society could help to decide on it. __earth (Talk) 12:35, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I guess that can be explained by me interpreting a higher threshold of relevancy than you do. --Merbabu 12:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
You guess is not good enough. But I say it again, regardless, I found other reputable publication that does not refer to the two leaders that mentioned the same thing about loyalty. __earth (Talk) 12:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Please find something important to report for an encyclopaedia. Not trivia. And please be civil. Don't make it into your "yes-no-yes-no format" --Merbabu 13:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Please don't delete my comment. [1] I've reinstated the comment you removed. __earth (Talk) 13:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It's a bug. If you don't want it to happen, then don't modify your comments 2 minutes later. But stick to the issue please. --Merbabu 13:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Or a second time three mins later --Merbabu 13:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Amusing. __earth (Talk) 13:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not the one that blank somebody else's comment here. But seriously, if you want to blank the whole article, might as well list it for WP:AFD. __earth (Talk) 13:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The blanking (on this talk page) was unintentional on my behalf, and probably a bug - but it could only happen because you added to your post (twice) after you made it. Please assume at least a little good faith. Why are you still talking about it? If you still have a problem with my blanking, report me to an administrator or make and WP:RFC - in the meantime drop it here (i suggest you delete the whole blanking charge). --Merbabu 13:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lets discuss rather than edit warring with hostile remarks

Earth and Sghan,

Could you please calm down and start to think rationally. I for one, hate to see “this article” existed in the first place, not to mention seeing people start to fight over it. I have to agree that information is meant to be shared but if the information (this article) can spark racial issues, it is better to be gone for the best of everyone. Chinese and Malay have gone through hard way to co-exist and to be frank, I am happy with how we have changed so far. We have begun to know how take care of each other’s feelings, unlike our older generations. Yes, we have more to improve but this is not the way to improve. This article has proven making it worst.

Throughout my adult life, I thought we have been more civilized than our older generations – you all know what I mean. I am a liberal man and I mingle around all races. I am a Malay-Malaysian, but my grandparents are from Singapore; my grand mother is a Chinese. I understand how both races feel when come to racial issues. So, can we just stop all this?

PS- I deleted the scholarship issue because it is now not an issue anymore (It was ONCE an issue). The government of Malaysia has changed not only University’s entry quota but the scholarship granting as well – It goes by merit, no longer races. Look at University Malaya for example; you can see that Chinese and Malay students are almost equal. I can give many more examples, but I think this is more than enough. Cheers, guys. - Jay 08:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jay, I haven't made any hostile remark to Sghan. And further, please don't see this through racial len. I'm only interested in recording though I admit, this is a controversial topic. As you may see, through my contribution list, I've helped in writing articles that describe discrimination the Malaysia government has done against the those not from the Malay ethnicity. I have no ill feeling against others and again I stress, I'm only interested in recording. Lastly, if something happened in the past, it shouldn't be removed but instead, framed in past tense. There is no Wikipedia policy that calls for a removal of something because it happened in the past. __earth (Talk) 08:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Singapore's founder is Sir Stamford Raffles?

How can Singapore's founder be Sir Stamford Raffles? It clearly had been a fishing village and it had already been known as Singapura (Malay for Singapore) centuries before the British colonised Singapore. Parameswara gave the name Singapore and he should be acknowledged as the founder. The founder is a Malay, not British - the invaders and colonisers. --203.15.122.35 08:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Calling him the 'so-called' founder (as you did) is not the way to solve that problem. Please find another way to say it.--Merbabu 08:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, actually Stamford Raffles is just a British colonial officer, but many articles including Singapore official site addresses him as a founder, refer Visit Singapore and many more. To me, he has never been a founder but Parameswara. Heh.. if he is the founder, I think I have failed my history exam! - Jay 08:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry my mistake, I got mixed up - it was Sang Nila Utama: according to the Malay Annals he is supposed to be the founder of Singapore (i.e. after replacing the name Temasek with Singapore or Singapura, as it is well-known in Malay). However, historians around the world considers Sir Stamford Raffles its founder because he found modern Singapore - where the influx of immigrants from China and India living side by side with local Malays form the modern society of Singapore. --203.15.122.35 01:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Had Raffles not founded Singapore, Singapore would most probably continue to be some lay back island with orang lauts fishing there. Raffles has always been regarded as the founded or Singapore. Bring your Malay Sentiment away from here and start editing with a username instead of hiding behind.Sghan 14:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Convenient as it might be for some (and perhaps some in the Singapore government) to imply that a place occupied by "orang lauts" (sic) can be "founded" by someone "civilized", the reality is that most of the world's historians now DO NOT accept such imperialist definitions, in fact they find them outdated and offensive. We no longer say, for instance, the New Zealand was "discovered" by Abel Tasman or Captain Cook or whoever since it was occupied by Maori well before these Europeans were born. This is even more the case when the very name of the place - Singapore (Singapura) precedes the said European by many centuries. Of course, Raffles should be acknowledged for his role in establishing the modern city of Singapore, and I have changed the entry to reflect this, deleting the unfounded and unsupported claim that "historians around the world considers Sir Stamford Raffles its founder" The proof that Singapore existed long before Raffles is that the man himself negotiated with the Sultan of Johor to allow him to build a port there.

True. Just like Malaysia. Had the British not come, Malacca and Penang would be a separate country from the Federated Malay States and Non-Federated Malay States. And Sabah and Sarawak would be unheard off, maybe invaded by the Phillipines and Indonesia.219.95.150.152 13:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Useful Source on Anti-Malay Racism

This site might be useful: www.asianracism.blogspot.com it's called "Asian Racism" and whilst it is a blog and does contain personal commentary, it also contains numerous articles from main-stream media outlets throughout the world as well as peer-reviewed journal articles. It has some stuff on anti-malay racism in Singapore, might be worth a look to gather source material etc 211.30.161.222 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Out of pure curiosity, have you EVER been to Singapore ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.111 (talk) 11:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)