Talk:Ann Dunham

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on March 10, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.
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[edit] Profanity!

There's some vandalism on the title of the page.

Apparently where it would usually just say "Ann Dunham" it has the N-Word plastered over it, followed by numerous exclamation points.

Fix this at once, please.

[edit] Recommend

Notability seems to derive only from being mother of Senator Obama, whose article contains same information as this one. Recommend merge and redirect at this time. Tvoz | talk 06:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what struck me when i saw this article. This is not a notable person. Her information should be contained in the Barack Obama article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.46.235.5 (talk • contribs) 02:03, May 5, 2008
There has been a debate on whether Dunham is notable or not, and the decision was keep. Since then Time magazine published a cover story focusing on Dunham. If that's not notability, I don't know what is. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
This article seems to contain a bit more information about Ann Dunham than the Barak Obama article does. However, a photo of Ann Dunham instead of one of Barak Obama, or at a minimum, in addition to one of Barak Obama seems appropriate since this article is about her, not him. 67.161.5.47 (talk) 18:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC) Girlgeek

I don't think the article should be deleted. You have an article for Jimmy Carter's mother Lillian, and she's less likely to be talked about than Obama's mother -- at least in the near future.

You need some clarification on that "fellow traveller" comment and just exactly what was meant by it. I suspect it just meant that the person who said it and Ann Dunham made a similar journey through life. Some people are taking it as an indication that Dunham was a Marxist, and you see a lot about that on the blogs now. That allegation is something that should be addressed. A user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.69.127.105 (talk) 21:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] error in article

you say Obama sr obtained a PhD in economics from Harvard but Harvard says he did not

as on checking with Harvard University, they say he only obtained a AM (masters).

see email to me below:

source: Harvard University

Subject: FW: obama Date: 2/21/2008 11:49:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time From: pdyer@fas.harvard.edu Reply To: To: x CC: BCC: Sent on:

Sent from the Internet (Details)

Dear x: We do have a record that indicates a person by the name of Barack Hussein Obama graduated from Harvard University with an AM degree in Economics in 1965. We cannot confirm, however, this is the father of Barack Obama.

Sincerely

Pat Dyer Supervisor of Information Services FAS Registrar's Office Harvard University 20 Garden Street Cambridge, MA 02138 617-496-3713/fax 617-495-0815 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.245.66.85 (talk) 00:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Birthplace

I believe that the mother's birth place should be changed or at least put in question; the citation in the article simply says "Some reports indicate she was born in Wichita. However, the stated source for the Leavenworth reference is the Wichita Eagle newspaper." which really doesn't prove much. However another source cited later in the article (but not for her birthplace) gives it at Wichita Kansas (http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm : "Stanley Ann DUNHAM was born on 27 November 1942 in Wichita, Kansas and died 7 November 1995 of ovarian cancer.") I believe this is correct, because the wiki article says that the mother worked at a plant in Wichita while her father was away, and it makes sense that she was born there; but not in Fort Leavenworth since there is no evidence that I can find that her family was ever stationed there.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.49.81.53 (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New article with information

If anyone wants to add information from this article - [1]. Remember (talk) 20:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC) And here's another article [2] Remember (talk) 13:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quote removed

I took out:

Barack Jr. would later relate that his Kenyan grandfather, Hussein Onyango Obama (c. 1895-1979), "didn't want the Obama blood sullied by a white woman".

The fact that Barack Sr.'s granddad objected is given in the sentence before, so no information is lost. I think a lot of people will find this quote offensive and it doesn't really add much to our understanding of Ann, who is the subject of the article after all. Another objection that could be made is that Barack Jr., whose interest was to tell his life story in a dramatic way, didn't really know anything about his grandfather's state of mind. I don't think that he ever met him. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marking it as POV

Marking it as POV challenged - see the edit from "13:21, 6 March 2008 74.129.135.194 " which lacked quality, did not do spell checking and made several strong statements with citing any sources.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.184.182 (talk • contribs) 14:11, 6 March 2008

I reverted the 74.129.135.194 edit. Americasroof (talk) 14:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good source

Obama's mother - an unconventional life Anthropologist disliked ethnic barriers, sought to aid world's poorUser:calbear22 (talk) 18:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Another useful source is this New York Times article on her life; interestingly, this article calls her Soetoro, not Dunham. It looks as if she kept her second husband's name after divorcing him. The article should probably be edited to reflect this. --Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where buried/cremated and where died?

Noticeably missing from this article is where she died and where she was buried or was cremated. This source says she died in Wichita. This article also says her mother Madelyn Dunham currently lives in Wichita. This is new information since this article started. I'm looking for a second source. Americasroof (talk) 04:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll answer my own question according to the NY Times article mentioned above she died in Hawaii and her ashes were scattered in Oahu. Americasroof (talk) 05:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genealogical info?

There's been some back-and-forth about whether the genealogical info (showing that Dunham was distantly related to George Bush, Brad Pitt, etc.) should be kept in this article or not. It's better to discuss than to edit war, even in slow-motion. So — opinions? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I think no. What is it adding? And it is certainly misplaced in the intro. Tvoz |talk 21:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Everybody is related to everybody. Her son is a "fifth cousin 8 times removed" to Robert E. Lee[3]... but then, so are you, probably. I'd be more interested in her employment history. Andyvphil (talk) 08:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I think we are agreed here. I'll remove it.Student7 (talk) 02:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article name?

The Time and New York Times articles both introduce Obama's mother under the name Soetoro. The New York Times calls her by her full name, Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro, and the Time article refers to her first as S. Ann Soetoro and later divides her life into four names she used: Stanley Ann Dunham, Mrs. Barack H. Obama, S. Ann Dunham Soetoro and Ann Dunham Sutoro. It looks as if she used the name Soetoro (or the variant spelling Sutoro) from 1967 to her death in 1995. Wouldn't it be appropriate to move the article to Ann Soetoro or Ann Dunham Soetoro? (Of course, redirects would remain from the other versions of her name.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd stick to one name - her maiden name as used in college is fine with me - and redirect her alternate names. Bearian (talk) 18:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "My mother was a Christian from Kansas"

There's an edit war going on about whether or not to include this characterization in the article. TheslB suggests that the wording "in 2007 Obama described his mother as "a Christian from Kansas." " is misleading, because the actual quotation from Obama is "My mother was a Christian from Kansas." Andyvphil and Mareino disagree. One of the points of dispute would seem to be whether this comment by Barack Obama was true or not.

I can see the arguments on both sides. On the one hand, the biographical facts seem to indicate that Dunham was a religious skeptic at least from high school. On the other hand, her parents were Christians (if not particularly devout), so she was probably raised as a nominal Christian — hence, the statement "My mother was a Christian from Kansas" could be said to be true, from a certain point of view.

My leaning is to exclude the sentence not because the elision of "was" removes the possibility that she was a Christian at some point in her life, but because this is Dunham’s article, and as such should cover the truth about her, not what her son might want people to think. The various reliable sources we have from newspapers and magazines show a woman who was a self-declared atheist at a young age, but later found respect for various religious traditions and a non-specific spirituality. The inclusion of Barack Obama's comment seems to me to be less about what Ann Dunham actually believed than it is about catching Barack Obama in a fib (as Andy put it in his edit summary) — and that isn't the purpose of this article. If this misleading comment about his mother's biography were to become a major campaign issue, then there might be a case for putting it in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008‎ — but I don't see why it belongs here.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I encourage the editors who've been reverting each other to discuss the matter here instead. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  • To the extent that it's verifiable and reputable, the article should of course discuss her religion a bit -- it's become a relevant topic as of late. But why has it become a relevant topic? Because Ann Dunham is a rare departure from Wikipedia's rule that fame is not contagious -- her religion is at issue purely because it helps us develop a full picture of who Barack Obama is. As such, Obama's statements about her religion are especially valid. Another issue that bears remembering is that, since Ms. Dunham is deceased and since she recorded little information about her beliefs, almost all of the information that we're getting about her is hearsay and third-party impressions. Among that class of evidence, the third-party impression of the subject's own son surely deserves special weight. --M@rēino 18:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
As I recall, the clear implication of what Barack Obama told the voters he was speaking to in his coffee shop interview during the South Carolina primary was that he had been raised a Christian because he had been raised by his mother, who was a Christian. The implication that she had been a Christian not at some point before she entered High School but when she was raising him was both clear and clearly false. Statements about her like that is precisely why people will come to this article seeking answers, and we should be clear in providing answers to their questions. Why else does this article exist? Andyvphil (talk) 19:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] delete article

I want to re-nominate this article for deletion. She is not notable. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Support deleting. Not notable and there is no reason to think the person this article is about will be notable in the future WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Being mentioned a few times by the media doesn't make you notable. I'm using this same argument for all biography articles being nominated for deletion that are related to Barack Obama, it's clear that Michelle Obama is the only notable person given an article, the others all seem to be fluff. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Note - ObamaGirlmachine (above) is a problematic and potentially disruptive new WP:SPA account that has been canvassing others to come to this and other pages in an attempt to delete articles for Obama family members. Suggest speedy closure if these articles are nominated. - Wikidemo (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
As Josiah notes, a TIME Magazine cover story quashes any "notability" argument for deletion, and the independent notabilty barrier for WP:SS spinouts isn't very high anyway. No way is this article going to be deleted. Andyvphil (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose deleting. I think that she is notable based on her being the primary long-term formative care giver of candidate Sen. Obama. Her life, upbringing, beliefs and major lifetime experiences are part of the story of Sen. Obama. --TGC55 (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Not happening, and this wouldn't be the way to go about considering it anyway. Tvoz/talk 02:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Defining who she is

There is some merit in deletion of an article about a woman who is dead and for whom we have very little verifiable information short of a candidate for an important political office. The latest from his book about her being terrifically religious just does not ring true IMO. But what else do we have? Observations from a divorced spouse? Student7 (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

They're both dead too. But it wasn't in his book that Obama said his mother was religious -- only when campaigning in the Bible Belt. Andyvphil (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Without trying to impugn the candidate, that observation seems less than scholarly to me. I would like to see it removed. Student7 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article contradicts itself regarding marriage to Obama Sr.

The first paragraph of the "First Marriage" section states that, "the couple was married on February 2, 1961... " and then the last paragraph in the same section states that, "no evidence has yet been presented to show they were ever married." So, which is it? It seems to me that encyclopedic content must not only be verifiable, it ought not contradict itself. Maybe it could be re-worded to state that they were allegedly wed, but no evidence exists (really? Anyone check with Maui records?).Techwritrr (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)techwritrr

  • It looks like 65.8.69.15 decided to mess with that section for no good reason. Another editor has already fixed the problem. --M@rēino 03:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)