Talk:And did those feet in ancient time

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[edit] poor

In my opinion, the entire section on interpreting Blake's words is poorly done. Much of the analysis is questionable at best, and much of the commentary is poorly written.

Just to say, I take issue with the following quote: " For example in the line "And was Jerusalem builded here", the stress should almost certainly be on the word "here", and not on "builded", as the music demands. Likewise in the penultimate line, the stress should be on "have", as only this makes any sense of the words. "

The stress is in fact on "here", and not "builded" (which is on the (weak) off-beat) - the second example is good though.

[edit] Joseph of Arimathea

"Jesus, while still a young man, accompanied Joseph of Arimathea to Cornwall on a visit to the tin mines of the area." I wonder if this was before or after He went to the New World....

I don't see why silliness was restored. Whose was that commentary that it needs to be in an encyclopedia? Some famous persons? Unlikely! The restored commentary was nothing but a childish prankish addition to the article.

Arthur 21:55 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)


I took out some of the trivial wikifications, and left in the possibly obscure ones.212.112.96.46 07:12, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] And did those feet in ancient times -patriotic?

It's a misconception -albeit a popular one- that Blake's poem is patriotic. The poem is a condemnation of the first industrialists who spoil the English countryside with their "dark satanic mills". The swords and arrows of the poem are being raised to save nature -God's work, according to Blake - from man's interventions and build an ideal society there, a new Jerusalem. Remember the fight is "mental", not physical, and not intended to subjugate other countries or expand England's territory. Utopic, yes, patriotic, I don't think so. Maybe it is perceived as such because it is always sung alongside "Rule Brittannia" and "Land of hope and glory", two VERY patriotic songs, during events like the last night of the Proms? Written by Inge (inge.s@skynet.be)

To this I'll add that, in near-total ignorance of the long poem that this hymn introduces, I too have always assumed that this text isn't patriotic at all. I was surprised to read that Blake's biographers say he bought this thing about Christ in England: I've always assumed that Blake is saying "Dude, England is nice and all, but is it the Holy Land? Is this where God chose to send his son? I don't think so! It's closed-minded and complacent to assume that our own little world of things-the-way-they-are is God's kingdom, not unless we do the work of making it so." (Hence the hymn's initial use in a suffragist context.)Iralith 16:29, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"It's a misconception ... that Blake's poem is patriotic. The poem is a condemnation of the first industrialists who spoil the English countryside with their "dark satanic mills". The swords and arrows of the poem are being raised to save nature ... . Remember the fight is "mental", not physical, and not intended to subjugate other countries or expand England's territory. Utopic, yes, patriotic, I don't think so."
For what it's worth, I don't see any obvious contradiction between "anti-industralist/pro-Nature" and "patriotic". If one thinks that an unspoiled natural England is the best England or God's intention for England, then is it not the height of "patriotism" to desire this England? -- 26 december 2005

[edit] Dark Satanic Mills

What is the author's source for saying "The reference to "dark Satanic mills", is ... a satirical reference to neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge"? All interpretations of the poem I have read refer to the Industrial Revolution, so some sort of references are going to be needed if this article claims something that is contrary to what most people think. — Asbestos | Talk 22:55, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As nobody appears to know or care, I'm going to remove the reference to Stonehenge. Objections? — Asbestos | Talk 10:48, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'd say, go ahead -- the stonehenge theory exists, but it's only one, and very much a minority one.
Blake seemed to have a slightly different concept for mill in his various longer works. None of these suggest usage in the context of monolithic circles - that doesn't mean he didn't have those in mind, just that the theory hasn't gained much popularity in Blake academic circles. source
The article should still make some attempt, though, to set out what people have thought Blake meant by "Satanic mills", as that is one of the main talking points that always comes up when the poem is being discussed. -- Picapica 10:38, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
(BTW: I took out the trivial point: It is mentioned in several sketches of the television show Monty Python's Flying Circus. -- what isn't?)

Another interpretation is that Blake was not refering directly to the Mills and the industrial revolution, but in fact was refering to a cotton mill near his home which had burnt down. It is thought he would have passed this burnt, chared, "Dark [and] Satanic" mill every day. Thus, it is thought that it could refer to what this mill represented- the dangers of the modern age- rather than the Industrial revolution specificaly.

The Stonehenge reference should be kept because it's a common theory. The other theories are only supported by a letter to the 'Guardian', are not common, and don't seem to relate to anything in the poem.--Jack Upland 19:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allusion

Should any reference be made of a possible allusion to "This other Eden, demi-paradise, This fortress built by Nature for herself...This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England" (Shakespeare)? ~ Dpr 07:30, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not Allowed in USA?

One part of the description states "The tune has been set to several texts in the United States, where it cannot be used with the text below" Is this a a poorly worded reference to copyright laws or is there some reason that the song cannot be used in the USA? --217.44.46.180

I suspect it's just trying to say that the words don't make much sense outside England. Both the text and the music are public domain in the USA, I think. --Zundark 09:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I take it to mean this too, and have changed the sentence accordingly. Rje 00:24, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cover version

I removed the references to "covering" Jerusalem and changed them to "performing". As the song is not copyrighted, and there is no orignal version as such, I do not think that "cover" is the right word. You would not say the LSO cover Mozart, would you? Rje 00:24, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

I expanded the Emerson Lake and Palmer reference, noting that Emerson altered the meter of the tune in his arrangement. - Anon.

[edit] Dark Satanic Mills

I see this has been discussed above, but the article still says:

"The reference to "dark Satanic mills", is sometimes interpreted, not as a reference to steel or textile mills, but a satirical reference to Neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge, which Blake thought were Satanic. Other interpretations are that the line was a coded jibe at either the established Church or the (then) theologically dominated universities at Oxford and Cambridge."

Could we have some evidence that Blake meant "dark Satanic mills" to refer to anything other than the most obvious meaning, the textile mills of industrial England, which Blake detested? Whose theory is this? Can we have some sources? Adam 10:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

It appears to be the opinion of 'CheeseDreams', whose edit of 01:26, 20 November 2004 states, "Thus the use of the word "mill" as in mill stone and round things". I agree that some evidence would be welcome as it seems highly unlikely. --Ross UK 23:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I am going to delete it. I don't think Blake was into either sarcasm or coded messages. He said what he meant, and "dark satanic mills" should be taken as meaning what it appears to mean unless there is firm evidence to the contrary. Adam 00:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

In Gertrude Himmelfarb's "The Idea of Poverty", there's a footnote after a usage of the phrase that says: "Blake's 'dark Satanic Mills' is generally taken to be a condemnation of the cotton factories. In the preface to Milton, where the phrase appears, it refers to the universities and intellectual establishments which worshipped the false gods of Homer and Ovid, Plato and Cicero, instead of the Bible, Shakespeare and Milton. The image of the mill, here and in his other poems, derives not from the cotton mill but from the iron and steel mills producing the weapons of war. It was militarism more than industrialism that exercised Blake." She gives no convincing reasoning for that theory, but at least it's an instance of a high-level academic espousing it. User:2005 213.107.107.9

She actually gives two contradictory theories: does it refer to the universities, or to iron mills? It can't mean both. And I don't think it's true that "militarism more than industrialism that exercised Blake." Adam 19:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It could refer to both, in a sense akin to that in which people speak of "the Military-Industrial Complex". We might assume that Blake was protesting against the post-Industrial-Revolution culture, changing away from Nature, agriculture, and spirituality, toward an emphasis on producing machine-minded men to work in machine-minded places. -- 26 december 2005

[edit] Chariots

The linking of the line in the text 'chariot of fire' to the article about 'chariots of fire' gave the misleading impression that the poem refered to the film. Since the film was already linked elsewhere, I removed it. TomViza 20:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The explanatory note on Chariots gave the impression that Blake was the originator of the concept, so I added in a reference and link to the background source of the Chariots of fire image. RBB 12:15, 20 December 2005 (ACST)

[edit] Pet Shop Boys

I have removed the references to the Pet Shop Boys remixing a recent comedy version of Jerusalem. I considered it pointless clutter, unless you happen to be a massive fan of the band, in which case this sort of info can be featured on there entry. Junius 09:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audio file

What kind of source or material is "Audio File"? Anybody singing something with some music? This is interesting for the reader but without details it's worthless for a serious encyclopaedia. -- Nichtich 03:02, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schoolcruft

Does the schoolcruft need to be here?

Is the fact that a song was popular at someone's school worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia article? I don't think so.

I agree surely the fact that it is very popular at many British schools (esp. private) generally, is good enough.

[edit] Neutrality of references to the Glastonbury legend?

Is it really safe to regard the following statement as neutral?

 "after all, the first verse is a series of questions to which the 'truthful' answer is no,"

The legend behind this poem seems to fall in the grey area between mainstream modern-day religions (whose claims cannot be assumed to be true or false in a neutral article), and ancient religions which are almost universally regarded as mythical. The article states that Blake, writing about 200 years ago, believed in the legend. Do we really have to right to state categorically that he was wrong, without loss of neutrality? Or should we change the article's wording to say something like "...a series of questions to which most people today (whether Christian or otherwise) would answer 'no' "?


Maybe this is pedantic - but there might still be people who would answer "yes" to the questions in the first verse (after all, the Book of Mormon is still very much alive, with its account of Jesus visiting North America!). Mtford 12:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name that Tune

I recently found an MP3 of a song called 'Jerusalem' by Vera Lynn. It doesn't fit the description of any of the songs and I wondered if anyone could confirm it is indeed Vera singing it and find out the complete lyrics. The sound is reminiscent of a church hymn via '40s MGM symphony orchestrations.

From listening to the track, the opening verse and chorus are:-

  • 'Last night I lay asleeping, there came a dream so fair;
  • I stood in old Jerusalem, beside the temple (bare/there)/
  • I heard the children singing, and ever as they sang,
  • Methought the voice of angels in heaven, in us, rang.
  • Methought the voice of angels in heaven, in us, rang.
  • Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
  • Lift up your gates and sing
  • "Hosanah" (spelling uncertain) in the highest,
  • "Hosanah" to your king.'

This is "The Holy City" of 1892 vintage y Stephen Adams and Frederick Weatherly. This song is also commonly called "Jerusalem".

And yes, I do believe that Vera Lynn released a version.

I don't think this is the place for that. If Blake's original wording was "strife" and not "fight," ought the text of the poem in the article reflect that, and that reference be removed? Unless the usage of fight is more common in the UK. Count Zero 10:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I second that 'strife/fight', I think people sing a mixture. I also always thought it was 'Now shall my sword sleep in my hand', indicating it never leaves, but I imagine someone has sourced this text from somewhere official. Skittle 13:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

  • support I have never in my life seen this hymn referred to as anything other that "Jerusalem", the title that Blake gave it. It should be found under its proper title. Mangoe 17:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Blake didn't call his poem Jerusalem (though he did write something else by that name), and it wasn't made into a hymn until long after he died. (The hymn is called Jerusalem, of course.) --Zundark 19:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The reasons given for moving are bogus. (The current title may not be optimal, however.) --Zundark 19:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I have withdrawn this request after further consideration. Though the title "Jerusalem" is familiar, it is arguable to keep it listed under the first line. Mangoe 19:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

The link provided to the RealAudio file is no longer working.--Geoff K.

[edit] Spitting Image

Does anyone remember, or have any details of, the Spitting Image parody of this song? The only lines I remember are the last two, which went: "Till we have built Jerusalem/And made it look like Milton Keynes". TharkunColl 11:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Searching on Google Groups finds a post with the complete text. (Of course, I don't know how accurate this is.) --Zundark 21:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Audios for discussion reader

maybe someone can add details, so one or two can be listed in the article? -- Cherubino 23:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The link currently in the article (the buffaloseminary.org one) is sung with a pronounced American accent. This being an English song, possibly a patriotic one, I think it sounds slightly ridiculous and ought to be replaced. --Komet 10:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move the text to WikiSource?

It strikes me that having the text of this poem in the article conflicts with established Wikipedia practice. Shouldn't it be replaced with a link to WikiSource? The article is sufficiently detailed to stand without it. -- llywrch 16:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

  • To the contrary, the established practice with songs is to include the lyrics in the article. See, for example, the recent "featured article" on "Old Dan Tucker." Dwalls 04:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monty Python banner

This song was performed in episode 4 of Monty Python's Flying Circus, despite that not being referenced in the article itself yet, and it is that performance which is the cause of the placement of the Monty Python WikiProject banner above. John Carter 16:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Although I have been a fan of Python since the beginning, the idea of linking to every distant reference in every show is would be rightly lampooned by the Pythons themselves. Is this what chartered accountants do for amusement when they retire? It seems to me that the scope of the Python project is too broad and they should not expect serious articles to be amended to include references to their particular whim. JMcC 07:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the Monty Python banner. Does the article on tea fall within the scope of Wikiproject Monty Python just because it features in many sketches? :) Skittle 00:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable peformances

I note from the article history that there have been a few attempts to add individual performances by various artists, each deleted again. I think the problem might be in the use of the heading "notable performances" which rather invites these kind of additions. This section, however, is not really about individual performances or recordings, but events or institutions where it is frequently sung communally (plus the film of course), so why not rename the section? I'm trying to think of a good suggestion - maybe Popular usage or Public performance. Sorry, they're not very satisfactory, maybe someone else can think of an alternative.

As it stands it's very tempting to add lists of artists. How many recordings have been made I wonder? Maybe the article would benefit from a sentence such as...

The popularity of Parry's arrangement has resulted in many hundreds of recordings being made, too numerous to list, of both traditional choral performances and new interpretations by popular music artists.

Well, it might help - it's worth mentioning these facts in passing, even if the consensus is not to list each performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cnbrb (talk • contribs) 10:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It is common for articles about pop songs to list notable cover versions- see, for example, Video Killed the Radio Star. Why should this be so different? The article on In the Wake of Poseidon by King Crimson, for example, refers to 'Mars' from The Planets, and the reference is reciprocated. I have proposed a sort of compromise that the link to Emerson, Lake and Palmer's version might appear in the "See also" section, which would hopefully avoid the fly-paper effect of a "Notable Recorded Versions" section- although I would regard that as a somewhat shoddy compromise for vigilance. I'm around often enough to revert nonsense on many articles and one more wouldn't be a burden; my test for pop song references is that if the performer has a Wikipedia entry, their notability is established. It's a different matter that their version of a particular piece of music may not be notable, which has to be justified by evidence. While I'm here, has anyone actually considered how much original research there is in this article, particularly the "Chariots of Fire" section? Comments welcome here (marked) or on my talk page. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 02:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
As per WP:BOLD I've added the link in the See also section as a trial and will watch the article. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 18:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Personal opinion / original research

"However as a Romanticist paean the poem has come under criticism, mainly for asking four questions: each with a literal answer of 'no'; and for its demands such as 'Bring me my bow of burning gold...' each of which have the literal answer 'Go and get it yourself..'. Consequently some see it as unsuitable as an English national anthem, especially as its reference to a foreign city would be puzzling to other nations." -- Removing all but the beginning of this as personal opinion / original research. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

As it was amended, the article left unstated the nature of the criticism and even implied that its Romanticist origins are the problem. Having a foreign city for the subject and asking four questions with a negative answer are indisputable. A search in Google showed no shortage of people voicing these criticisms and restating the problems in this way is not original research. JMcC (talk) 18:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC) and JMcC (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
No, the negative answer to these questions is hardly "indisputable". There are apparently people who believe that Jesus of Nazareth visited Britain. [1] As far as as I know, there is no hard evidence on this one way or the other, thus this is simply a matter of belief one way or the other, thus eminently disputable.
The reference to Jerusalem is also problematical. The line that I removed read "its reference to a foreign city would be puzzling to other nations." -- Could be. Maybe not. Cite?
Additionally, it is fairly obvious that the "Jerusalem" intended is not the physical city of Jerusalem located at 31°47′N, 35°13′E, but the "spiritual Jerusalem" or "New Jerusalem". Again, perhaps this might be confusing, but to whom, and where's the cite?
I should perhaps mention that I personally agree with the criticisms JMcC mentions, however I am hardly a reliable source, and to the best of my knowledge neither is JMcC, and we therefore need a good cite or cites on this.
The article currently reads "However critics of the song have said that its reference to a foreign city, its non-secular basis and the negative answers to each of its four questions make it unsuitable." -- Cite please. Who are said critics?
- Writtenonsand (talk) 19:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I have added a citation tag to the sentence, and will replace it with some references shortly. I can recall reading them, so they are out there somewhere. JMcC (talk) 10:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Sounds good from here. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 15:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] baseless supposed legend versus reality of "Satanic"

The "interpretation" starts with undocumented assertions which miss the point: "The poem was inspired by the apocryphal story that a young Jesus, accompanied by Joseph of Arimathea, went to Glastonbury, in England."

Turning to real facts, firstly it is well known that Blake was arrested for treason and opposed the British army. He did need to express his radically unpatriotic politics rather obliquely.

Why would the mills be *Satanic*? Because they were *arms* factories. Because the whole point of the poem is to express Blake's hostility to the unChristianness of British militarism. The words "Satanic Mills" refer to Britain's arms factories. They are *immediately* followed by a listing of armaments: bow, arrows, chariot, spear, sword. He then commits to "mental fight" to drive out this satanic militarism and introduce true Christianity (build Jerusalem here).

Cheers, Robin P Clarke

  • Is there a reliable source for this? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 13:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Mr Clarke, As ever with Wikipedia, if there is another interpretation you are welcome to add it to the article, provided you do not subtract from the other interpretations. Your interpretation should be supported by a credible reference, ie no original research and no personal opinions. That there is a legend about Glastonbury is undeniable. Furthermore I have not heard anyone say before that Blake is not referring to it. What is highly uncertain is its truth, but nowhere does the article say the legend is true. It is even quite likely that Blake didn't believe it either but found it depicted an ideal to which England should aspire. Incidentally, I moved this discussion to the end of the page, as seems to be the convention in Wikipedia. JMcC (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)