Talk:Anatidae

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Duck Family
Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Class: Aves Order: Anseriformes Family: Anatidae
Subfamilies
Dendrocygninae Oxyurinae Anserinae Tadorninae Anatinae Merginae

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I've shifted the Oxyurini to the end of the family, as that's their position in HBW and all other northern hemisphere texts, and also changed the wording on swans a bit to reflect that Olor is not widely accepted as distinct (and also corrected the number of species from '24' to 7) MPF 19:14, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

For those who have come in half way, Jimfbleak and I have been discussing the problems with laying out the waterfowl (Anatidae). There are just too many of them to deal with in a single family entry, but (it seems) no obvious and uncontroversial way to break them down into smaller units. Many of the other very large families have plain, more-or-less unchallenged subfamilies. Not so with the ducks, geese, swans and allies.

So the list here is simply an alternative one, not offerered as the "correct" list, just another possible way of doing it. It follows HANZAB closely, so while it can be taken as Gospel for Australasia, it may or may not be suitable for us at Wikipedia with our worldwide focus. Tannin 11:01 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC).

The Anatidae can be seen as having six subspecies:

• Dendrocygninae: whistling ducks. There are 9 species in the genus Dendrocygna which has a worldwide distribution through the tropics and subtropics, and a single diving species, Thalassornis leuconotus the White-backed Duck of Africa, which is difficult to clasify and has often been placed in the Oxyurinae (which it resembles in morphology and feeding habits). It appears that the similarity is largely a matter of convergence, however.
• Oxyurinae: stiff-tails and Freckled Duck. There are 6 species in the genus Oxyura (the typical stiff-tailed ducks) and three monospecific genera: Biziura (the Australian Musk Duck), Heteronetta (the South American Black-headed Duck which is well known because, Cuckoo-like, it is an obligate brood parasite) and Stictonetta (the Freckled Duck of southern Australia).
• Anserinae: geese and swans. There are 15 species of goose in three genera: Anser (9 species of 'grey' geese), Branta (5 species of 'black' geese, and the monotypic Cape Barren Goose. There are 24 species of swan in three genera: Cygnus, Coscoroba (South America), and Olor, the tundra swans.
• Tadorninae: shelducks, sheldgeese and steamer-ducks. This group of larger, often semi-terrestrial waterfowl can be seen as intermediate between geese (Anseriane) and ducks (Anatinae). There are 19 surviving species, mostly from the Southern Hemisphere, divided into 6 genera: Cyanochen (Eithopia), Chloephaga (South America, 5 species), Neochen (South America), Alopochen (Africa), Tadorna (the shelducks, 7 species), and Tachyeres (the Steamer ducks of South America).
• Anatinae: perching, diving, and dabbling ducks. The Anatinae are further divided into three groups:
  • There are 19 species of perching duck in 15 genera (though the similarities in some are now regarded as convergent, which suggests that a reassignment may be appropriate).
  • About 40 species of dabbling duck in 2 genera: the monotypic Marmaronetta (Marbled Teal) may instead be numbered among the pochards. The remaining 40-odd species are all part of the genus Anas, which includes wigeons, gadwalls, the true teals, pintals, mallards, and blue-winged ducks.
  • The 16 species of pochards or 'diving ducks' in 3 genera: Netta (3 species), Aythya (12 species), and Rhodonessa (the recently extinct Pink-headed Duck of India).
• Merginae: eiders, scoters, sawbills and other sea-ducks. All but two of the 20 species in this group occupy habitats in far northern lattitudes. There are 10 genera: Polysticta (Steller's Eider), Somateria (eiders, 3 species), Histrionicus, Camptorhynchus (the recently extinct Labrador Duck, Melanitta (the scoters, 3 species), Clangula (the Long-tailed Duck), Bucephala (3 species), Mergellus, Lophodytes (the Hooded Merganser of North America), and Mergus (the mergansers, 5 species, one extinct).

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For what it's worth, the 1991 Audubon Society Encyclopedia of North American Birds breaks the Anatidae family down thusly (but it is limited to coverage ONLY of North America):

• Anatidae family
  • Anserinae (sub-family of Anatidae)
    • Dendrocygnini tribe (whistling ducks)
    • Anserini tribe (gooses)
  • Anatinae (sub-family of Anatidae)
    • Antanini tribe (dabbling ducks)
    • Athyini tribe (fresh water diving ducks, aka bay ducks)
    • Mergini tribe (sea ducks) (Scoters, Eiders, Mergansers)
    • Oxyurini tribe (stiff tailed ducks)
    • Cairinini tribe (pearching ducks)
  • Cygninae (sub-family of Anatidae) (Swans)

Kingturtle 12:03 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks KT. There are ... um ... about 160 species of duck, right. (Using "duck" in the widest possible sense, I mean.) That means that there will only be ... oh ... about 161 different classification schemes, right? (sob) I am inclined to think that the best thing to do is to lay out the alternatives here (as you and I are doing) and then wash our hands of the matter and leave the whole mess for Jim to sort out. :) (Darn it, sometimes the plain vanilla Wikipedia interface is a problem. Right now, I need one of those little "evil grin" smiley faces.)

I'm going to finish doing the list above, and then just leave it here. Jim knows a good deal more about waterbirds than I do, so (at least as far as I am concerned) he can pick bits out of whatever scheme (or schemes) he judges best. Tannin 12:27 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

I have referenced the whole mess and moved those genera where molecules and morphology don't agree to a separate section. Additionally, I think the diving ducks should be separated as Aythyinae as per above (only as subfamily instead of tribe). The case for dabbling-diving duck monophyly was never strong, to be sure; it was more something that never really became unstuck in people's minds.

I am currently going over the Anatinae groups and adding uncertainties, references, and alternative taxonomical layouts. Dysmorodrepanis 18:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

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I was thinking this morning whilst out birding (earliest ever Swift of the year by 8 days for me. Also a Marsh harrier-what a range) that a geographical split might help with some of the big groups like Columbidae, where many groups are restricted in range, like the American Zenaida genus. This won't help with the hummingbirds unfortunately.

The duck comments are very helpful, although I suspect the geographical approach will be limited here. Several species like Northern Pintail, Northern Shoveler etc occur in N Am, Europe and Asia, and winter in Africa.

I'm going to digest the input, and probably leave it for a while before I tackle this group again. At least there are common names for many duck groups, unlike the hummers. I've started a family article on Accentors.which should be of zero interest to everyone. jimfbleak 15:10 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)

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I've done anatidae and duck, basically using Tannin's scheme. This keeps the taxoboxes manageable, and the genera can go in at the next level. At least this family is readily amenable to subdivision in a sensible way. I'm sure that there will need to be further tweaking, but we are on the way. I might even do a duck species soon.jimfbleak 07:35 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

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Can you get the list of subfamilies to line up with the other classifications in the toxoboxo? Kingturtle 07:43 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

I'm an HTML moron. I can copy bits, but otherwise I don't know what I'm doing.Tannin is the man for this I think. jimfbleak 09:11 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

looking good! well done! i apologize for being out of the bird-loop this week. I hope to add some bird articles this weekend. Kingturtle 16:09 May 1, 2003 (UTC)

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My Coscoroba Swan pic is certainly not defunct! It's simply one of those "lost" by the server troubles. Brion says it (and many others I put on around the same date) will be restored.
Adrian Pingstone 22:38, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Anatoidea 2 Coscoroba swan pic 3 Coscoroba and Cape Barren Goose clade 4 Question

[edit] Anatoidea

I'm interested in creating an entry for the Superfamily Anatoidea, which I believe generally contains Anatidae as well as the extinct Presbyornithidae and Cnemiornithidae. However I'm not sure how this group is treated (if used at all) by most ornithologists dealing with extant species. Any advice? Anatoidea currently redirects to Wildfowl. Would simply adapting this page and adding a taxobox be an option (not sure if "wildfowl" is an approximate common name for Anatoidea or not).Dinoguy2 22:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coscoroba swan pic

The Coscoroba Swan pic is (or appears to be) defunct - should it be cut? MPF

As it is still not working, I've shifted the Coscoroba Swan image text & setup to here to get it off the main article:

• • Pic is working so I have reurned it to article - Adrian Pingstone 09:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coscoroba and Cape Barren Goose clade

I did not want to edit the main page without this discussion. Recent research has shown that Coscoroba and Cape barren goose are very closely related, even though they do not look remotely similar. The reference article is "A recent chicken repeat 1 retrotransposition confirms the Coscoroba-Cape Barren goose clade". Author(s) JOHN Judith St. ; COTTER John-Paul ; QUINN Thomas W. The reason I am posting this is because I saw Cape Barren Goose as unresolved.

[edit] Question

What does Anatidae mean literally? Or is it just a made up name? Rintrah 17:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC) Nevermind. I worked it out. Rintrah 17:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)