Talk:Amidah
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[edit] Problem with Amidah Page in Firefox
I'm not sure what's going on (I'm not too much of a technical guy) but I cannot view the main Amidah page in Firefox, but it opens fine in Internet Explorer 6. When I try in Firefox I get a page with what looks like the code for the donation box for Wikipedia. I can open other Wikipedia pages fine with Firefox. Hopefully someone smarter than myself can help with this.Tovias 21:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Rain in the Second Benediction
The first three benedictions are not benedictions of supplication but of praise, and, therefore, nothing is asked for...God's acts and powers, past, present, and future, are only recognized. The line in question is "Mashiv Haruach, UMorid HaGeshem", which is a statement of fact...not a request or an imperative, grammatically speaking.
[edit] Redundancy
I have done some heavy editing of parts of this article because it has many redundancies, and I feel it could use some more detail (though it has a lot already, nice job fellow editors!). Feel free to review my edits, I think most are agreeable. Rafi Neal 21:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for clogging up the history page. I will now do my edits on a separate word processor for this article and then copy them in. There's still some work left to be done... —Rafi Neal |T/C 04:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Paragraph for deletion
I took out the following paragraph from the history section:
- While the Mishnah seems to have known the general content and sequence of the benedictions, much latitude prevailed as regards personal deviations in phraseology, at all events; so that men's learning or the reverse could be judged by the manner in which they worded the benedictions.
The only fact here not mentioned in the section is that men were judged by their prayers, which is not referenced. If someone wants to put this back, please make the point more clear and cite the source (I think it's referring to the Talmud's praise of Shmuel HaKatan, but that example poorly supports the claim brought here).
This entire section needs copy-editing, but I can't do it without completely rewriting it since I don't agree with its "modern scholarship" POV. I agree with many of the facts, but not the style of approach to the classical texts. To call the Mishnah "sporadic" and not "definite" or "coherent" is to misunderstand the Mishnah's purpose. The section's tone implies that the Tannaim and Amoraim practiced a primitive form of Judaism, chas vechalilah. Yes, this section needs work. —Rafi Neal |T/C 02:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- This appears to be material from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, which can be very opinionated at times. I agree this comment about the Mishnah doesn't belong in this article (it may belong in the Mishnah article.) In general I believe that dropping parenthetical comments into articles about completely different topics is almost always a WP:NPOV violation because these comments can't be dealt with in any sort of neutral way without creating a complicated detour that takes the article off-subject. Best, --Shirahadasha 18:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bowing in the Amida
I added a paragraph to the section on bowing in the Amida.
During certain parts of the Amidah said on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, Ashkenazi Jews traditionally go down to the floor upon their knees and make his upper body bowed over like an arch, similar to Muslims, though not exactly in the same manner. There are some variations in Ashkenazi customs as to how long one remains in this position. Some Jews among the Dor Daim and Talmidhe haRambam understand both the Mishneh Torah and the Talmudic source texts concerning bowing in the Shemoneh Esreh to be teaching that one must always bow down upon his knees, not only during the High Holy Days, but throughout the year. It is hard to know the percentage of those who hold by the latter view, the likelihood being that most who accept such a view usually only do so in private or when praying among likeminded people.
Some references concerning Ashkenazi practice: See the popular book To Pray as a Jew by Hayim Halevy Donin or Rite and Reason on pages 528 & 529
Concerning Yemenites (specifically - Dor Daim) -- On page 34 side bet of Tractate Berakhoth p. 705 in the translation of the Talmud known as "THE TALMUD" WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach, Editor: Rabbi Dr. A. Zvi Ehrman of Fellow Jews' College, London; Member of the ISRAEL BAR, and published by EL-'AM-HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 Peli Printing Works LTD, Ramat Gan - Givatayim, it states:
"The third [type of bow mentioned in this part of the Gemara is] (hishtahawa'a),...total bodily prostration;... (Tahhanunim; cf. Meg., ibid, B.M. 59B; El-Am Hazzahav, p. 184). YEMENITE JEWS STILL PRESERVE THE CUSTOM."
"they fall on their faces, after the Prayer (Amida), stretching out their arms and leggs, like the custom of Ashkenazim on Yom Kippur," (translation mine from page 68 in Even Sepir)
These first two references only concern prostration during tachanun, the part of prayer immediately after the Amidah. This practice was widespread among all Yemenite Jews, not only among Dor Daim, only 100 years ago. I'm eye witness to the fact that some older Yemenites still do this privately as well as some younger zealous ones. The kneeling upon the floor during regular Amidah is a known issue among Talmidhe haRambam and some Dor Daim. Neither of these groups are very well known, and are only recently become less fearful of social pressures -- as a whole.
In the book HaMaspeek l'Ovdei HaShem by Rav Avraham son of Rambam, there are over 100 pages on the practice and significance of prostration and kneeling to the ground during the Amidah. It could be that this is part of the reason for this books lack of popularity.
THE TALMUD" WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach, Editor: Rabbi Dr. A. Zvi Ehrman of Fellow Jews' College, London; Member of the ISRAEL BAR, and published by EL-'AM-HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 Peli Printing Works LTD, Ramat Gan - Givatayim, it states, in addition to Yemenites preserving prostration during Tachanun, that it is clear (regardless of whether one agrees with this particular commentary) that the bowing intended by the Talmudic compiler to be done during the Amidah was bowing upon the floor. Then it provides some source, a particular Jewish historian, who suggested that this fell out of popularity among the Jewish people due to the Christian practice of kneeling. (no need to mention Muslim practice). I'll try to provide the exact page and quote next time, b'azarth HaShem.
Omedyashar 13:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Found the information I was looking for:
The following commentary, concerning the Talmudic basis for the above halakha in the Mishneh Torah, is from "THE TALMUD" with English Translation and Commentary; Tractate Berakhoth (v en 'omedin) - commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach; Published by EL - 'AM - HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL, Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 , commentary on page 34 b of Tractate Berakhoth on p. 705 of the publication:
The second, keri'a, [kaf-resh-yud-ayin-heh], bending the knee, the Baraitha says, means veritable kneeling, as Solomon's prayer makes plain. In fact, however, nowadays one only bends the knee - except for Alenu during Musaph on New Year and the Day of Atonement at 'but we kneel and prostrate and give thanks..' and during what is called the 'avoda in the Musaph of the Day of Atonement... Reader and often the whole congregation then re-enact the ancient ceremony (see Rema to Sh. A., O.H. 621, 4)
A one possible explanation to how or why the practice of actual kneeling during the Amidah prayer ceased as a common practice throughout the year as opposed to the practice observed in modern times of only doing so during the Jewish New Year and the Day of Atonment, is found on page 704 of the same commentary:
Ginzberg (ibid., p.181 ff.) suggests that the dislike of an excess of bowings and so on stemmed from an aversion to Christian practice.
Picture of diagram of Jew prostrating on Islamic website [1] taken from "To pray as a Jew : a guide to the prayer book and the synagogue service" by Hayim Halevy Donin Paging xxii, 384 p. : ill. ; 25 cm
Omedyashar 13:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I am wondering if it might be useful to start an article on something like Prostration in Judaism giving the history of the custom and its surviving practice. It sounds like there's a lot of detail here that might possibly better be in a separate article than the Amidah article. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
You're right. There is a lot of detail to deal with here, enough for its own article. I just wish I had enough time and access to the internet to do so... but I don't currently. I have posted a bit of information with references on the discussion board of the article on Tachanun... but it has remained untouched and unanswered for many many months. I think that this topic touches on a practice important enough to be dealt with and further informed about... as many Jews "do" 'nafilath apayim' every day, while knowing almost nothing of its history or original form. I had added information about its history and original form of 'nafilath apayim' on the tachanun article, without touching the sections regarding how most religious Jews do tachanun in modern times... non-the-less what I wrote was deleted more than once, eventhough I had provided MANY more references than are provided for the article as it is at the moment. Anywayz... hopefully I'll find time to do this. Thanks for your recommendation. All the best to you as well. Shabboth shalom. Omedyashar 12:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm wondering about the opening sentence in the section on bowing. It states, "The worshipper bows at four points in the Amidah:" But then only lists three that I can tell, "at the beginning and end of both the first blessing of Avot and the second to last blessing of Hoda'ah." This could be confusing to someone coming here to learn about the process and what's going on. Tovias (talk) 13:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
