Talk:American literature

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This article is seriously in need of attention. It does not even start at the beginnings of American literature, in the colonial period, but rather the early 1800s.

This seems to be fixed

I'd like to suggest a greater section for science-fiction literature. Its one of the major American contributions to popular literature and deserves more than a couple sentences. Why not mention SF authors along with others in the piece?

I guess this is just an aside, but is the fact that Walt Whitman "manages not to sound like a crass egotist" really NPOV? That's how he always came off to me, to tell the truth. Also, although I guess the "literary value" could be disputed, but I'm surprised not to see Stephen King listed among more recent American writers. I've never personally read any of his books, but they've been undeniably popular. Of course, as the previous writer(s) says, discussing current literature in this light is dangerous. :) Seems like I should be able to think of more writers if I put my mind to it, too.

This whole article is a mess. I got as far as Washington Irving sounding "comfortably European" and realized it was very much POV. Claining Poe is the first "American" fiction author is certainly not an opinion that is beyond dispute. -- Decumanus 20:38, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I didn't really think it was that bad, although the claim about Poe bothered me, too. (I'd forgotten by the time I got to the Whitman thing.) The article roughly parallels works of American fiction I read in high school. Maybe my teacher wasn't very NPOV. :)

Does literature encompass non-fiction? Certainly one of the great early contributions to American writing would be Thomas Paine's Common Sense, which was found in an enormous percentage of households of the day. (This is often cited as evidence that the early U.S. had an amazingly high rate of literacy before compulsory education.)

Contents

[edit] Postmodernism section

I've moved the postmodernism section here, because it's unencyclopedic nonsense. At the very least it needs to be rewritten before being reinserted.

Former content was:

Some names may serve to adumbrate postmodernism: Thomas Pynchon, William Gaddis, Robert Coover, William H. Gass, John Barth, Raymond Federman, James Merrill, Don DeLillo. One pattern for all of them: every cultural structure must be part of a larger structure; none can be complete. The ideal of a structure of all possible structures is unrealizable. Knowledge must remain finally indeterminate. All this leads to the "Pattern of the pattern", the "Finnegan's Wake" matrix. Whatever. For the time being, we must not choose between the One and the Many, Humanism and Deconstruction, Community and Dissemination. We can only reopen such terms to constant negotiations, perpetual transformation of desire. As Thomas Pynchon, Raymond Federman, Oswald Wiener, Hans Wollschläger, Jacques Derrida, James Joyce, Arno Schmidt, Vladimir Sorokin, Elfriede Jelinek, writers of the postmodern novel, did.

"Whatever", indeed. --Delirium 01:13, July 17, 2005 (UTC)



I've fixed Postmodernism, I think. --J.Dayton 00:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post-Postmodernism?!

From reading the Post-modernism section that was omitted, I definitely agree that it should have been cut. On the other hand, should a post-postmodernism section then be included? And is this really an academic term anyway? It gets some hits on google, but I have never heard of a style called post-postmodernism in any of my undergrad or graduate Lit classes nor have any other of my student acquaintances that I've asked. A great many critics are trying to retool or cast off the label of postmodernism itself because it is too broad and widely abused, so, I would think post-postmodernism is probably a label that many writers and critics would not want to apply to anything.

It also says this movement started in 1970, but Gravity's Rainbow, the most widely recognized po-mo text, wasn't published until 1973. Morrison and DeLillo are frequently described as postmodernists, but the bulk of their work is from the 70s and 80s. How could post-postmodernism have begun while postmodernism itself was at best a nascent movement? As far as the description of the movement, the characteristics mentioned are either vacuous (what is a "soulful plot" anyway?) or identical to those associated with postmodernism. And the John Irving and David Sedaris works that I am aware of hardly qualify under the description offered; I'd seriously question if the latter, at least, even has any business in the article. I think maybe the whole section should just be ditched, but I didn't want to just do it without posting this first.

Also, with the postmodernism section cut, there is no mention of Pynchon, DeLillo, or Barth. These are three of the most highly regarded post-WWII American authors (three of the top four for Harold Bloom), and it seems like they should be mentioned. Roth and Morrison are relegated to being mentioned in lists in the ethnic writers sections, as though they are footnotes. Roth is Bloom's fourth author, and Toni Morrison is one of the few American authors to have won a Nobel. I think they deserve a little better treatment. 24.7.172.141 09:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)MOB


Postmodernism is most definitely a term that is used, unfortunately, and often. Contemporary fiction is also used, though, and I think we might consider changing the title here to Contemporary American Fiction. Essentially, this category should include all notable literary contributors who are not, well, dead. Thoughts?
Also, we absolutely do not need a "post-postmodernism." That's just silly. -Solana-

[edit] American literature

I moved the article back to American literature. I believe the reason this article gets so few edits and attention is because it is listed under a strange title that is rarely used to identify the subject. American literature appears on Google a hundred times more frequently than "literature of the United States". You can see that the Wikilinks mostly direct to American literature. Also, 'of the United States' does not include literature of the American colonies. It also implies a contemporary focus, as in the body of the United States literary culture today. Other Wikipedias use American literature, and it is overwhelming the term used in the academic discourse. Most other literature articles use a national or ethnic adjective to introduce them. I don't think we should change this just because a few people object to the adjective that has mostly defined this subject. If they want to counter the most widely used term in the field, they can add a section at the bottom of the article with their objections. Tfine80 22:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

--

Well said. -Solana-

[edit] Thomas Wolfe?

Should not this article at least mention Thomas Wolfe of Asheville, North Carolina? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScottHutchinson (talk • contribs) 04:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

--

If you don't like it, change it.

[edit] WHAT !

OK, this article represents 1-2% at best of American literature worth mentioning. Where's Ring Lardner? Where are so many people from the past? Will anyone work on this?

--209.79.200.99 07:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


--I really, really hope this Ring Lardner comment is a joke. -Solana-


[edit] Southern Literature, "Minority" Literature, etc.

Does anyone else feel as if a work of literature should either stand alone as American Literature or go unlisted on this particular page? We might put a list at the bottom, with links, but a work is either American Literature or it isn't. It either fits into one of our (sloppy) periods of time, or it doesn't.

In short, I think that these works need to either be integrated or removed. Toni Morrison shouldn't be listed as a "black" author. She should be listed as an author - an American author. Much of the lower half of this page is ridiculous, and I'm going to start working on it if there aren't any objections.--J.Dayton 15:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theater??

Theater isn't literature. Theater is theater. If we're going to start working with mediums outside of straightforward prose we'll need to decide how far we're willing to go. What about the Graphic Novel? I almost placed a section in on the American comic, myself, before I considered the problem of medium. The title of this page is not American Narrative, it's American Literature.

A section on American Theater should be added to the American main page, linked to the American Theater page, and removed completely from the American Literature page. --J.Dayton 15:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I am of the opinion (and I'm sure others agree) that literature is literature, whether it is in the style of a script, in verse, or in prose. My proof lies in a work such as Ulysses by James Joyce (though it is not American literature). It is not a theatre piece strictly, yet it includes sections of scriptwriting, of prose, and of poetry. Is it therefore not literature? To examine a work by Eugene O'Neill or Tennessee Williams solely as a piece of theatre is to be missing the point. They are valid pieces of literature, and very much enform the American style as much as Mark Twain and Nathaniel Hawthorne. In fact, several courses in American literature have included theatrical works as well as your "straightforward prose." Is the graphic novel literature? Probably not, as the graphic novel emphasises art, not literature. This is similar with the comic strip. The work of theatre deserves as much the heading of "literature" as any work of fiction or non-fiction would. Therefore, it might behoove us to include a bit about O'Neill (considering he did win a Nobel Prize in Literature). Kevin F. Story (talk) 18:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Have you ever read a graphic novel (Watchmen, for instance)? Have you ever read a script for a graphic novel? They're written almost the exact way that screenplays are. Should we include culturally important screenplays in the entry? And what is the difference between a screenplay and a script for a staged play? Neither are intended to stand alone, and so how can they do just that (stand alone)? You noted that the comic emphasizes art, but the film emphasizes...well...film, and the play emphasizes performance (as well as set design). Really, the script is just a skeleton. I've performed and directed several plays multiple times, and no performance matches another (even in the same run there are variations date to date) - that doesn't happen with Huckleberry Finn.--J.Dayton 17:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Yet how can you refute the fact that the works of Eugene O'Neill are considered literature by the world, as validated by the Nobel Prize? I submit that a play can stand alone, without performance, but that a graphic novel has a difficult time standing alone from its art. I have indeed read graphic novels and comic books and find them fantastic pieces of art. Graphic novels are not written the same way as screenplays; a well-written screenplay uses prose to create a scene. Works of theatre and film are more than just lines the actors say. Tennesse Williams writes a full two pages of stage direction before the first line of A Streetcar Named Desire. One would find it very difficult to convince the world that the works of William Shakespeare are not literature. Also, one would find it difficult to convince the world that the works of Homer, meant to be performed live, are not literature. The words of the play, like the words of a novel, do not change. The interpretation of them changes, and that is as true for Beyond the Horizon as it is for The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. I would venture to guess that if some book writer in the graphic art world were to earn the Nobel Prize in Literature, or any literary honors (plays can earn Pulitzer Prizes, too) then that writer would have achieved a place in the grand scheme of American Literature. Kevin F. Story (talk) 21:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Post-World War II Literature

Is there a reason my image of J.D. Salinger keeps getting deleted? --J.Dayton 15:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

And, speaking of the Post-World War II Lit page, might we adjust the title to American Modernism? This, coming from most of the professors who I've spoken with on the matter, seems more appropriate. In general, the various sub-categories on this page make little to no academic sense.


Just so you all know, I've completely re-written Post-World War II. I think it's making sense now. Cheers. --J.Dayton 00:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's NPOV to say that this was the last innovative period in American literature. How could it be? Tfine80 19:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Then take that out. You neutered the rest of the article though. The Beatniks were not the only notable literary figures of the time (they weren't even the most dominant). I put my article back up. You can take out the "last great" bit. You'll have to make an argument for the rest of it.--J.Dayton 17:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)hi

[edit] Where's Oz?

Just curious --202.156.66.226 12:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)