Talk:American Soccer Pyramid

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1 NPSL
2 Does this exist?
3 Globalise Tag
4 USASA entry
5 Cup Eligibily Secition

[edit] NPSL

What level is the NPSL? It's amateur and draws from largely the same pool of players as the PDL. As such, it seems to be clearly below the USL Second Division and at the fourth level along with the PDL. --Balerion 22:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does this exist?

This is a fine article and I think that it definitely provides clarity for the American soccer system, but I feel that the article is an imposition of the structure of European soccer associations onto the American soccer leagues.

I think the article should be more clear on the fact that many of these leagues are completely and wholly separate and that this pyramid is in no way official. 49giantsharks 05:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What you refer to in regards to imposing European flair into the article is correct. HOWEVER, the "levels" on the pyramid look like they follow FIFA sanctioned guidelines for competitive levels (USL-1 is classified by FIFA as a Tier-2 league, USL-2 as Tier 3, MLS as Tier-1, etc etc etc). But this clearly needs to be noted. Burdman 17:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think having small separations (if possible) between separate leagues would be good, and it may not affect the overall shape of the pyramid. For example, MLS would be at the top, followed by a small space, the USL-1. The third tier would look weird though. It would have no space between USL-1 and USL-2, but the space between USL-1 and the other 2 leagues. Greecepwns (#1 Red Bulls Supporter) (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I am suspicious as to the 'officialness' of the PCSL & NPSL being level IV (see my posts on the relevant talk pages). If they are not, and we could confirm that, we could drop them down to level 5 with the USASA (or move the USASA to a 6th level) and institute the small breaks between MLS and USL-1 and between USL-PDL and etc., without problem. Gecko G (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Globalise Tag

I fail to understand how a league that fields teams from multiple countries is only an "American league" or pyramid of "American leagues". There are no references to support the claim that the league(s), despite including international clubs, are solely American (USA). —Muckapædia 15^e mai 2007, 1h00 (UTC+0900) 머크백과 TALK/ CONTRIBS

I believe the intention was "North American," not necessarily "American." But that said, American is a very broad term and does not refer to the United States. America refers to all the countries of North, South, and Central America. Now, even with this, Mexico has a different structure. This purely encompasses Canada and the United States. The usage of the word "American" is partially correct, but incorrectly included Mexico. However, there are teams from the Caribbean as well. I would advocate "North American Soccer Pyramid," but, again, Mexico would be unfairly included.

That is, unless the entire page is edited to include the Mexican leagues.

A better name is needed. Burdman 17:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think American soccer pyramid is fine, and that American does in fact refer to the United States. Ask anybody around the world, except possibly Mexico, and they'd know that American means from the USA. There's only one Canadian team in the MLS, and as far as I know the Canadian leagues are separate. If you really want to, we could change it to United States Soccer Pyramid. --AW 20:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Muckapædia- I believe the intent was originally to have the article be American and [some] Canadian. The Puerto Rico and Bermuda references are only for a single team each, much like how there is a welsh team in the english pyramid and I belive some teams ignore which side of the border they are on in England/Scotland and Ireland/Northern Ireland IIRC (and since Puerto Rico is an American Commonwealth, the point could be argued to be moot in it's case, but that's an aside).

Given the confused state of professional soccer in the US and Canada before the 1990's, no clear system nor heirarchy arose in either country. Sure, some organizations and leagues came and went (ie NASL) but no long lasting heirarchy nor system emerged until the consolidation of the USL from the merging of the USISL and the A-League. And the USISL and A-League (and later the USL) both followed the example of most major sports in US & Canada (ie Baseball, Basketball, Hockey) and included teams from both sides of the border. Thus Canadian soccer was in the partially merged situation where its 'officially' top teams played in the USL even though a good argument could be that the best Canadian competition was one or another of the local (solely Canadian), chaotic (in terms of organization/heirarchy) competitons. As this consolidation was taking place, the MLS was created in the US, officially above the USL. Now Canada was in the very odd situation where it's official top division was the American lower division, but still unofficially the local chaotic situation could of been considered unofficially equal (or even higher). Starting this season, a single Canadian team has been created within the MLS (and there are rumors of more in the future) so now they are back to the previous situation. For more examples, see the discussion they are having at Talk:Canadian_soccer_pyramid where they are having trouble determining the Canadian Pyramid since the CSL has some (de-facto or official, I'm not sure) recognition from FIFA as "the national league" (despite it only being in 2 of the provinces) but at the same time the USL-1 was previously (or is currently) rated as the Canadian Div I. (FIFA has not yet addressed the issue of the creation of a Canadian MLS team). Meanwhile, the CONCACAF website even reads that there is "no division one championship" and last I had checked the Canadian Confederation website only made indirect references to the provincial teams as the top level.

This is also a big part of why when Canada was given a spot in the new Champions League they had to create a special tournament to determine Canada's entrant to it whereas all the other countries entrants appear to be determined based on domestic Div I league results (or the Caribbean championship for which entry into it is in turn based on caribbean domestic Div I league results). Previously I think Canada was considered part of the unofficial "Northern Zone" of CONCACAF but in actuality had no representation in international club competitions (I had hoped that this new Superliga would emerge in this kind of role but that now appears unlikely).

It should also be noted that in Canada and the US, the national federations have a more hands off approach to organizing professional competitions than I believe is the case in other countries. Thus seperate organizations (not directly responsible to FIFA's organizational scheme) arose which followed the common northern North American sports economic model which "ignores" the American/Canadian border.

Burdman- In the past, wasn't there a couple of northern Mexican teams in one of the shortlived American leagues? Or was that in Indoor Soccer?

AW- Actually, in many parts of the america's outside of the US, the common confusion between American (meaning of the North or South America Continents) and American (meaning of the United States of America) can be a touchy subject, and they view it that we Americans (meaning of the USA) have usurped and horded the noun. Hence, on here on the 'globalized' Wikipedia, both America and American take you to what are effectively little more than disambiguation pages. But in general, depending on the context, yes it is usually understood which is meant.

all- sorry for rambling on for so long. I hope my words are coherent. Gecko G (talk) 11:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] USASA entry

Rather than having a woefully incomplete and partial listing of a few leagues from the USASA, wouldn't it be better to just list something like "4 Geographic regions" or such? Or perhaps mention that it is organized into 55 state associtiations? Though that latter would exclude the two Region I "Regional Leagues" (CLS & MSSL). Gecko G (talk) 10:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the English Football League System article, there is a list of every league at every level and mention that they run in parallel (although they actually have promotion and relegation). You think we should do the same? Greecepwns (#1 Red Bulls Supporter) (talk) 17:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Greetings. It would be great if we could get that level of detail, but as it is now it makes it look like there is only 17 leagues at level 5. If we could get a complete list from all 55 USASA state associations AND keep that list updated, that would be excellent, but I do not think it is possible to do... in some states the structure is constantly in flux. Since we can't do that, I am suggesting that instead we simply list one or another of the subdivisions that the USASA is broken into (either the 4 regions or the 55 state assoc.). Alternately we could keep it as is but then we need to put some note or explanation that the 17 (or however many) listed leagues are only a sampling of the many leagues at this level. Thank you, Gecko G (talk) 07:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Greetings again. Let me try again to explain more clearly. If we could fully develop the level V entry like in the English Football League System article, that would be great, be we don't have enough information to do so. Therefore, I propose that we follow the examples of some of the other league system articles like Romania level IV or Sweden levels IV-X and list something like "level V and lower: Various leagues run by USASA entities". Alternatively, perhaps we could develop something like the French system article. Gecko G (talk) 10:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)