Talk:Ali Kemal Bey

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Move? 2 Pasha? 3 Story about his son, etc. 4 Dropping quotations 5 Daughter by 1st wife Winifred (nee Brun)?

[edit] Move?

The article Bey indicates that "Bey" is an honorific title. It does not imply that people with the title incorporate it as a part of their name. Wikipedia naming conventions are usually to ignore honorifics, so should this article be moved to Ali Kemal? DWaterson (talk) 01:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

There seem to be quite a few articles that have Bey in the title. The article of Cihangirzade İbrahim Bey states that he had to remove the Bey after the 1934 Law on Family Names in Turkey so it may be that it is OK to use the Bey for those who had commonly used it prior to this date. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 10:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a few that I found (there are probably more): Osman Hamdi Bey, Şahin Bey, F. D. Amr Bey, Cihangirzade İbrahim Bey, Hacı Arif Bey, Tanburi Cemil Bey, Reşit Bey. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pasha?

In a report in The Times dated May 19, 1919, it states that Ali Kemal Pasha was appointed interior minister in the cabinet of Damat Ferid Pasha, replacing Mehmed Ali Bey who retired. All further references state Ali Kemal Bey was the interior minister so I presume The Times was mistaken describing him as Pasha? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 11:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

In the late Ottoman period the "title" Bey did not mean more than "Mr.", indicating that the man so designated was not a simple worker or peasant. Indeed, in the Turkish Wikipedia the article on this person is simply named Ali Kemal. To Bey or not to Bey is a question of what is the most common designation in English-language publicatons concerning the person. The title Pasha was a real title, bestowed only by ferman of the Sultan, comparable to British "Sir". It is likely but not certain that The Times was mistaken in using the title. If not, still the most-common rule should prevail.

Shouldn't the article state that his original name was Ali Rıza?  --Lambiam 08:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Story about his son, etc.

Actually the story about his son doesn't really belong into the article. There is just a little bit of irony in the story about the assassination plot in Madrid. - Citations, further quotatoins should be added in the last two paragraphs. And 'unidentified' Armenians at least specified by 'terrorists' otherwise it looks a little bit copied from a anti-Armenian, Turkish-sponsored page. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 23:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dropping quotations

@85.108.10.150 - IP from Bursa. You simply dropped the Quotation from Genocide. Issues, Approaches, Resources regarding the death details of Ali Kemal. I wonder why you have an interest in obscuring sources without adding information. Not very helpful... Apocolocynthosis (talk) 23:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Daughter by 1st wife Winifred (nee Brun)?

The second section after the introduction, Exile in England states as follows.

Ali Kemal fled to exile in England, where in late 1909, his wife Winifred (née Brun) (an Anglo-Swiss lady whom Ali Kemal had married in London in 1903 [7]) gave birth to a son, Osman Wilfred Kemal. Shortly after giving birth his wife died of puerperal fever. Ali Kemal stayed with his son and daughter with his mother-in-law Margaret Brun (nee Johnson) in Wimbledon until 1912 when he returned to Turkey, marrying again.

I think that the article could be improved with further mention of the unamed daughter -- sister of Osman Wilfred Kemel, at least her name. Also it appears that Kemel left his children by Brun in England during the 1st World War. That should be further stressed in the article as it would clarify the 'Britishness' of Osman Wilfred Kemel (later Wilfred Johnson) and his decendents.--TGC55 (talk) 12:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)