Talk:Alberto Contador

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[edit] Citations but no footnotes

Fix it or I'm going to remove the text again. Nosleep1234 09:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Y Done SeveroTC 10:10, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Nosleep1234 11:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nickname

Origins of his nickname, "The Accountant"? Toby Douglass 09:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I added this a while back, obviously not referencing it - my badness. I'll have a search to see where I got it from (and then reference it ;) ). SeveroTC 10:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The only ref to this on his very thorough Spanish page is that his mates called him "Pantani" when he first started cycling, as he was already an amazing climber. His surname literally translates as "accountant" - or at least, Google Translate does. Google will also bring up more than one cycling forum with some wannabe claiming to have "invented" it. Obviously, it's not his nick in Spain... nor does "contador" generally mean accountant, in common parlance; it's more normally used to refer to something like a gas meter. mikaultalk 10:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, literally, it translates as "counter" or "one who counts." Contar is the verb for "to count" and the suffix "-ador" (pintador, one who paints {painter}, bailador, one who dances {dancer}) means "one who." Though it is correct that contador means bookkeeper or accountant. Nosleep1234 18:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"Pintador"? – er, you sure about that? Contador might literally be "one that counts", but in Spain it gets primarily used for meters and other non-human ones that count... an accountant/book-keeper is colloquially a gestor, more formally contable, unless in public office, where you might find a contador público </pedant> mikaultalk 01:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I haven't found a reliable source for it, as, as you mention, it's just a translation of his name. Interestingly, I found a few sites that reference Wikipedia over it... SeveroTC 20:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation about blood clot

There appears to be some speculation about the blood clot. I found at least one reliable source containing this speculation [1]. This may or may be (I can't read [2]. If we get 3 or so, we probably should mention it after this "renewed speculation about his involvement in Operación Puerto" (not in the blood clot section). Nil Einne 09:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, mere conjecture from this "news" website... Keep it encyclopaedic, keep it WP:BLP. SeveroTC 10:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Conjecture from multiple reliable sources is implicitly allowed under BLP. It is important here we get good sources, not tabloids. If & when multiple sources are found (currently we only have have 1, perhaps 2) then I would suggest you take it to the BLP noticeboard if you disagree but I think you will find you're wrong here (I'm a very strong supporter of BLP and also check the noticeboard not infrequently). There is nothing unencyclopaedic about us reporting very common speculation as speculation. Indeed, it's more unenyclopaedic for us to fail to mention any very common speculation. Note that there is a big difference between us saying that Contador's blood clot was due to reason X and us reporting that multiple reliable sources have speculated the blood clot may be due to reason X. It would be quite wrong for us to do the former, but there is nothing wrong with us doing the later, if true Nil Einne 14:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
On second thoughts, I agree, but who has said it must be explicit. Regards, SeveroTC 14:43, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation about Puerto

I don't think that this statement: "he has become focus of renewed speculation about his involvement in Operación Puerto." Should be included. Two of the referenced articles are in French, so I can't read them, but the first article doesn't indicate that there is any "renewed" speculation at all. If there is "renewed speculation", then it should specifically cite the individuals or organizations involved, otherwise, I think this should be removed as per WP:BLP. Cogswobbletalk 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The whole point is that it's just speculation. It shows how much of a witch hunt this has become. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
No, the whole point is that it's not just speculation, but a deliberate attempt by Spain to protect national heros. His name was on the list. Doping expert Werner Franke got his hands on the original protocols of the searches in the house of Fuentes (cf. http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/0,1518,497236,00.html (German)). Contador's name miraculously disappeared from the lists when spanish authorities passed them on. Fuentes was team doctor of Liberty Seguros. He was also a gynecologist. Now, as Jaksche puts it: Unless you want to do doping, there is little reason to go to a gynecologist as a male cyclist. Contador would do everyone a favor to follow Ivan Basso's example and confess or at least provide DNA for a test, if he truly has nothing to hide. The fact that he claims a DNA test would not be "fair" is ridiculous. Either its his blood or it isn't. --213.209.110.45 12:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not the place of Wikipedia to arrive at a synthesis: that is counted as original research. I'm leaving this Werner Franke thing for the time being, but it seems more like he's a trouble maker than someone with an opinion with significant weight. As Cogswobble implies above, English language sources are preferable so that we can all ensure that WP:BLP is being adhered to. The importance of WP:BLP cannot be overestimated. SeveroTC 12:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Now you are on the fringe of NPOV. BLP is important, but we do not "silence" people either. The FACT is that dozens of newspapers over the past week have posted again about his involvement in the operacion puerto case. The involvement is that he was on the original list given to the german police (the list that included ullrich) (reprinted by bild.de and suddeutsche zeitung last week). The fact is also that like Contador, Basso was "cleared" from the list in 2006, but in april 2007 Basso admitted that he was involved, so clearing does not mean that it could not be true regardless. The fact is that there was a dopingplan for "liberty seguros" that mentioned: "J.J. R.H. A.C.". The fact is that there is an A.C. on the list of Fuentes. Now there may not be proof, but there is definitely a LOT of speculation by media and fellow riders. We are not to say that this is true, but if so many newspapers report this, then who are we to silence it ? Wikipedia DOES report about unproven things, and several of these german and french papers are respected newssources. If someone's position is widely regarded controversial we do note this in wikipedia. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree about leaving the remarks from Franke. An article about Moshe Katsav without mentioning the accusations against him does not make sense. Nor can an article about Alberto Contador do without noting the accusations against him. That is common sense. According to the article about Werner Franke he is considered a “leading expert in performance enhancing drugs" and ZDF thought his accusations were important enough. If you have sourced statements about Franke please state them in a neutral way Scafloc 13:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
We still don't draw synthesis. If someone reports AC as Contador that can be mentioned, but if the reports leave this open for the reader to infer, it cannot. We're talking about unproven but potentially career ending accusations here - whatever is added must be thoroughly sourced. SeveroTC 13:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Severo, but you're really stressing my patience by now. It is not the position of Wikipedia to out-expert the experts. You seem to have a lot of energy protecting cyclists from what you call libellous accusations, but have no hesitation to slander accredited doping experts as "troublemakers". Your suggestion that he isn't someone with an opinion that carries particular weight is ridiculous. You may believe all you want, but it isn't the role of Wikipedia to promote scientific illiteracy and gullibility. --213.209.110.45 07:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Ha ha ha. I'm not a Contador fan, but I am a fan of sourcing and attributing statements. As Cogswobble says below, phraseology is everything. If there is a significant view to be detailed, it should be in the style of X accused Contador of Y.... Quote the experts exactly, and if they have implied something, allow them to imply it in their own words. We can't draw synthesis from people's arguments - that is policy. SeveroTC 14:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
None of which has anything to do with your slandering Franke. You happily ignore BLP when it doesn't fit into your position. Labelling scientists "troublemakers" and accredited experts people people whose voice doesn't carry particular weight has little to do with policy and everything with POV-pushing. In fact, were I you, I would have removed it posthaste as a BLP violation. --213.209.110.45 14:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This is the talk page for improving the Alberto Contador article, not about me. Thanks for your care though. SeveroTC 14:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
You don't improve the Alberto Contador article by slandering sources and acting as if you were a better expert in the field of doping than accredited scientists. You are quite right, this isn't about you, which is why you can keep your uninformed assessment of sources to yourself. Obviously, you don't even have the decency to retract your statements. --213.209.110.45 14:54, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
My objection to the "renewed speculation" statement was that it was unsupported in the references, and that it was not specific. "Renewed speculation" implies that there is new information or a new accusation.
The sources cited for that statement simply restated the known information. If there IS new information or a new accusation (such as the Franke accusation), then it should be explicitly cited as "X accuses Contador of Y", rather than vaguely stating that there is "renewed speculation". Cogswobbletalk 16:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


Contador has been barred from racing in Hamburg because of the alleged links to Puerto:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/6937634.stm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Av2007av (talk • contribs) 10:13, August 9, 2007.

[edit] Current team

Someone recently changed Contador's current team from Discovery to Astana. My understanding was that it is Discovery until next year, when he will move to Astana. What's the lowdown on this? BrianTung 00:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right, and an interesting point about when riders contracts expire has been in the Dutch courts lately as Thorwald Veneberg has disputed not being offered a new contract by Rabobank [3]. I just don't have the energy to revert these such edits only to change them back in January. In January, I will update all teams and riders (in the ProTour ranks at least, I'll do professional continental by the end of February) and refresh all the referencing. SeveroTC 13:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)