Talk:Al-

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[edit] In names?

I have heard that the 'Al-' prefix has some kind of significance if put in a person's name. A while ago Private Eye criticised Mohammed Al-Fayed for using 'Al-' and I was wondering on what idea this was based. I heard it is considered by some to be an Arabic construct which means importance or respect - similar to 'san' in Japanese but used as part of a name - but I have also heard that it doesn't carry any specific meaning when affixed to an Arabic name, could this be explained in the article, or just to me if it is thought inappropriate for encyclopaedic entry. Obi-w00t 18:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

A lot of times the "Al-" is simply omitted when transcribing Arabic names into English -- al-Qaððafi becomes Gaddafi, etc. I'm not sure the prefix really has a consistent meaning in all proper-name contexts, since it's just the definite article. When prefixed to a nisba geographic adjective form, it basically means "the one from" -- i.e. al-Tabari == "the one from Tabaristan". AnonMoos 19:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, it looks like the article on Mohammed Fayed has since been updated to clarify the point that Private Eye were criticising the "Al-" part because using the definitive article seems a little arrogant (well, I think it does anyway). Still, thanks for clearing up my understanding on this subject. Obi-w00t 13:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All This "Al-" Thing

The article is nice as it goes, but what I want to know is if there is, as I suspect, a connection between the Romance "a la" and which is found in variations in Italian, French, etc.

I know that Arabic was heavily influenced by Greek and Latin of the Roman Empire; I also suspect that this "al-" thing is derived in from Latin. I do not believe that it is the other way around, simply because the Arabs did not conquer and rule all of Italy and France, as they had Spain and Portugal.

Also, the Hebrew is "Ha". Why are the Hebrew and Arabic words for "the" so different? I believe that "ha" and its variations are the Semitic originals, and that the Greeks and Latins copied "ha" from the Semites, while the Arabs copied "al-" from the Latins.

Can the true facts be verified?

Regards,

WikiSceptic 05:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

WikiSceptic, the etymology and relation to Hebrew usage are beyond my limited knowledge at the moment. I'll look it up for you. -Fsotrain09 01:17, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, -Fsotrain09, I eagerly look forward to the information. Regards. WikiSceptic 14:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

You may find this discussion I had with a fellow user of some relevance to your question:

[START]I have a question about the article 'el', which language borrowed from which? Or is it just a mere coincidence that 'el' in both Arabic and Latin translates to 'the'? --Inahet

  • El did not exist in Latin. Latin had no definite article. Canis could mean "dog," "a dog," or "the dog" depending on the context. Spanish el comes from Latin ille, illa which was the self-reflexice pronoun. Cicero ille means "Cicero himself." Some people have argued that Spanish el is from and/or was reinforced by Arabic al, but it's hard to believe when you realize that French has Le, les etc. and Italian has il etc (I'm guessing Romanian has something similar, but I'm not sure). When the Romance languages moved away from being inflected languages and more in the direction of synthetic languages, they needed a definite article so they used the next closest thing that Latin had. This process was probably well under way before the split into separate Romance languaes. But I would be interested to see if you could dig up a source which posits Arabic al as an influential factor in this development.--Hraefen
Thank you for replying to my question. I assumed that perhaps the word for the Arabic definite article was borrowed from the Latin word for 'the' via another Semitic langauge (or the other way around), but as you point out, Latin had no definite article and the word el is unique to the Spanish language.
I did find a source that claims the development of the definite articles in each Romance language were heavily influenced by local factors [1], but it isn't specific as to what the local factors are. -Inahet [END] --Inahet 02:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Hraefen, Romanian has a postfixed -ul (masc.), -la (fem.). Classic example, Drac-ul, "the dragon". The linguistics for the derivation from ille are pretty conclusive, there is no way that Arabic would have contributed. The inspiration for the creation of the Latin definite article is far more likely to be from Greek, which had definite articles since at least the 8-7th century B.C. As an aside, there is little correlation between inflection and articles, as both Greek (ancient and modern) and classical Arabic are both quite inflective. Concerning the point of the discussion, I don't know of any evidence of Arabic borrowing of ille from Latin, but it is not completely unlikely, since Classical Arabic was developed largely in (formerly Roman) Syria. Causantin (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The change from ille from a demonstrative to the various definite articles in the Romance languages is par for the course, and does not require Arabic input. For example "the" in English was originally the masculine form of "that" (which was neuter); Greek 'ο changed from a pronoun (he, that) in Homer to an article in classical Greek; the Hebrew prefix ha- is likely to be related to the Aramaic pronoun hā (that).

On the other hand, the coincidences between the two language families in what consonants have pronominal force are spooky. Examples:
-l- (found in ille and its derivatives; and in al-, elleh (these), ula'i, etc.)
-h- (found in "he", 'ο etc; and in ha-, hā, hadha)
-dh- (found in "this", "the", and their Germanic cognates; and in hadha, zeh etc.)
-nu- (found in nos; and in -nu, the Hebrew suffix "our").

Still, not enough to base a theory on! --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Tone

Is the way the intro is currently written, with the usage examples incorporated into the prose, acceptably encyclopedic? Or does it sound too much like an attempt to teach the language? Any thoughts would be great. -Fsotrain09 22:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that it could be perceived as paedagogical. There were examples in the prose before I overhauled it, but I did expand on them. I imagine that this article is being read by someone who has little or no knowledge of Arabic, and I feel that issues about placement of the article, prefixing it to attributive adjectives and its gemination of sun letters are difficult to comprehend without examples. I suppose the examples could be removed from the prose and added below the relevant paragraph as a list of examples with minimal explanation. — Gareth Hughes 22:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The vowel of "al"

The article explains nicely the assimilation of the article to a following "sun letter". However, a question of mine did not get answered: What are the rules for the vowel of the article? In some words, e.g., Hizb ut-Tahrir, the vowel shifts from a to u without any change in the written Arabic form حزب التحرير (ḥzb altḥyr). Can someone explain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.73.12.254 (talk • contribs).

Yes, this should be explained in the article. It isn't that the vowel of 'al-' is changing, but that it is assimilated with the preceding vowel. What is not mentioned is that 'al-' begins with a همزة الوصل ('hamzatu l-waṣl'). This means that unless it begins a sentence, the vowel following this hamza elides with the preceding vowel. This doesn't cause much of a problem in Modern Standard Arabic, but it does in Classical Arabic. In Classical Arabic, the endings of the nominative, accusative and genitive cases are still used. Thus, in MSA البيت الكبير is 'al-bait al-kabīr', but classically it is 'al-baitu l-kabīru'. However, some classical pronunciation is often retained for proper names. Most notably, عبد الله is '‘abdu llah', but not '‘abdu llahi' — only the internal case ending is retained. The 'i' is ابن ('ibn') also has the same hamza. — Gareth Hughes 12:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your explanation. 88.73.128.4 21:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Will someone get the porn off the page?

An article about an Arabic prefix is not the place for porn. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lolilikepigslol (talk • contribs) 22:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Please explain what you are referring to. -Fsotrain09 23:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetic sorting

Since al- is an article, is it correct to alphabetically sort by the noun, ignoring "al-"? In Arabic and in English? —Michael Z. 2007-07-29 20:58 Z

Yes, probably in most cases (especially when it's hyphenated). However, don't confuse it with أهل ahl (a very different word which also occurs as a prefix in Arabic names, and which is sometimes also transcribed into the Latin alphabet as "Al-"). AnonMoos 17:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plur-al?

Can al- come before plural nouns, as the can in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fishal (talk • contribs) 23:11, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Yes -- it's invariable, and not "declined" for number, gender, or case... AnonMoos 16:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Al' in dynasty names

It's nigh impossible to find any information on this, but I believe that Arabic dynasty names use a more emphasized version of this, which implies "House of __", and which does not combine with the following noun: for example, the House of Saud (آل سعود transliteration: Āl Suʿūd). --Xyzzyva (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you thinking of "ahl", which means "people" but can, I think, mean dynasty? Adam Bishop (talk) 01:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think so, see House of Saud. It's pretty clearly lam-alif, but I really wonder if this is related to al-. There are also some dynasties that seem to begin their names with a connected آل, like آلبوسعيد, but this could also be something else. --Xyzzyva (talk) 02:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't know...there is a discussion about this on Talk:House of Saud, maybe it would be better to ask there. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic places āl under root alif-waw-lam, while others connect it with ahl from root alif-ha-lam. In either case, it doesn't have any ascertainable connection with the definite article that I can see... AnonMoos (talk) 09:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semitic etymology section

What I am concerned about in the section is the following:

Supporters of this theory sometimes cite the Arabic word 'this': hadhā (هذا), which, when combined with a definite phrase, is shortened in some accents of Levantine Arabic from hadhā al-bayt (this house) to hal-bayt (هذا البيت becomes هلبيت)[verification needed]. However, this could be an influence from other Northern Semetic languages on the Arabic dialect of Levantine Arabs[original research?].

The part about Levantine Arabic sounds a lot like folk-linguistics blather we hear on daily basis in the Arab world. I think the editor is writing his own musings about proto-semitic. Especially that the same contraction (hal) exists in Libya as well. -- 19:59, 28 March 2008 User:Hakeem.gadi

The hal- bit (insofar as it was a hypothesis about early Semitic etymology) was in fact based on an interpretation of ancient Dadanitic (North Arabian) inscriptions; however, it seems to have fallen out of favor in recent scholarship. See the article "Ancient North Arabian" by M.C.A. MacDonald in The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages (2004) ISBN 0-521-56256-2. AnonMoos (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick reply. I am ok with the proto-semetic *hal-. It is the explanation and the rejoinder to the explanation that sound like improvizations to me. Anyway I tagged them with [verification needed] and [original research?]. Hakeem.gadi (talk) 04:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long "a" (ā)?

Should "al" be properly transliterated in standard Arabic as "āl" (with macron over the "a"), as is done for other words containing ا? Badagnani (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Or should it be transliterated as 'ā? Shouldn't the alif have a hamza over it if written properly? Badagnani (talk) 22:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not a long a, it's a seat for the hamza, which just isn't written in this case. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The Arabic definite article doesn't have either a long vowel or a hamza (glottal stop) -- with the minor exception that all forms which would otherwise begin with a vowel have a preceding glottal stop when they occur at the beginning of a sentence (however, such glottal stops are not written in the standard orthography). AnonMoos (talk) 05:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

So, the ا in the Arabic definite article is simply shorthand for the one with the hamza on top? And the hamza on top, although it's written as a hamza and looks exactly like a hamza, isn't a hamza in this case but is a "hamzatu l-waṣl," which doesn't have a glottal sound? And the pronunciation of both is just "a" (not long "a" or glottalized "a")? Is that right? This kind of thing can be very complicated for a beginner to understand so I think we should spell it out in the very clearest language possible in the article, as it's such an important word. The explanation of the "hamzatu l-waṣl" in the article is just way too opaque as it reads right now; can we refine it for clarity? Badagnani (talk) 05:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Just think of it as the only way in standard traditional Arabic orthography to indicate that a word usually begins with a vowel is to put a letter alif at the beginning of the word... AnonMoos (talk) 05:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm only talking about one word, "al," and you didn't answer my questions. Badagnani (talk) 05:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Whatever -- you're kind of over-analyzing it in the absence of the relevant linguistic and historical background. If you really want to know, the letter alif is ambiguous in Arabic, since it can write a glottal stop consonant sound (its original meaning in earlier alphabets), it can also write a long a vowel (a meaning that developed in Aramaic as a Mater lectionis), or it can write words which begin with a vowel sound in Arabic in most cases (but which would have begun with a glottal stop in other Semitic languages which are stricter than Arabic in always requiring words to begin with a consonant sound -- classical Arabic only requires each sentence to begin with a consonant sound, but some related languages required each individual word to begin with a consonant sound).
Later, this ambiguity of the meaning of alif was partially resolved by use of the hamza diacritic (however, the hamza was not invented for this purpose, but actually because the distribution of glottal stops was different in Muhammad's dialect recorded in the Qur'an versus what was later considered to be the most "correct" form of standard classical Arabic). The definite article is never written with hamza in the usual orthography, because the definite article does not begin with a glottal stop (except when at the beginning of a sentence).
There's little ambiguity between alif in the definite article and alif marking a long vowel, because of the simple fact that alif at the beginning of an orthographic word never represents a long vowel in modern Arabic orthography unless it has a madda diacritic... AnonMoos (talk) 06:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Right. No hamza. My mistake. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I have an instruction book here and it spells the definite article with a hamza (which it calls hamza al-wasla, or simply "wasla") over the alif. Badagnani (talk) 08:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Wasla (which looks a little like a miniature letter sad) is a special diacritic which is used to mark a word-initial letter alif which has neither a glottal-stop consonant sound nor a vowel sound associated with it. This is quite different from hamza in the ordinary sense (which looks a little like a miniature initial letter `ayn), the diacritic which specifically marks the presence of a glottal stop consonant sound. However, wasla can be referred to as همزة الوصل, while ordinary hamza is referred to as همزة القطع , which could be confusing... AnonMoos (talk) 13:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)