Talk:Airbus/Archive1

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Bias?

What a negative story about Airbus! Suspicions of corruptions and bribery galore. Wouldn't it be better to mention the manufacturer's successful development of the A330 and A340 and also the exciting prospect of the A380 more? Or the fact that in 2003 for the first time Airbus is producing more aircraft than Boeing? Bribery - I'm sure - is also a well-known mechanism in the US (the Dutch royal family came into serious trouble once when they seemed to have accepted bribes from Lockheed in the 1970's), so it's not really exciting to mention that in the Airbus article. hwebers


more bias

the bit about the success of the airbus 340 range being responsible for Lockheeds failure??? that is dumb, the 340 came out more than a decade after Lockheed suspended production of the dreaded Tri-Star!!

Fair comment

The stories about Airbus and its shameful record of corruptly dealing with politicians and others making buying decisions are all on the public record. It is certainly true they are not alone. Boeing and Lockheed have all faced the same claims.

I can find no reference to "Harvey Cashmore" or a Canadian lobbyist named "Karlheinz Schreiber" on the Internet. Could you please indicate to which "public record" you are referring? -- Viajero 18:26, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I find no references either. Why not move this text to the talk page until it can be verified...or not. Ark30inf 19:58, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

To be verified

I have moved the following text here pending verification:

Questions have been raised about the propriety of the conduct of Airbus. Syrian courts convicted three individuals including two Ministers for ten years for taking over $100 million in illegal commissions from Airbus over the purchase of six passenger jets for Syrian airlines. A former Syrian Prime Minister Mahmoud Zuabi committed suicide rather than face charges over the Airbus scandal.
Also, Airbus was alleged by Canadian investigative journalist Harvey Cashmore to have paid secret commissions to influence the decision of Air Canadia to purchase $1.9 billion worth of Airbus jets. Cashmore alleged that some $20 million in secret commissions was paid by Airbus to a prominent Canadian lobbyist Karlheinz Schreiber. Allegations were made - including by Canada's own Justice Department - that former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney had shared in these commissions. Mulroney later successfully sued the Justice Department saying that he was defamed by the allegations. The judge who mediated the suit said that Mulroney was the victim of a "grievous wrong."
Again last year, Airbus was the centre of another investigation involving allegations of bribery. Belgian investigators are inquiring into whether the doubling of the now collapsed Belgian airline Sabena's order from 17 jets to 34 was influenced by any improper motives.
Other scandals involving purchases of Airbus aircraft from Kuwait, India, Saudi Arabia, Mexico have all had the effect of besmirching the good name of Airbus.
Politics clearly plays a part in aircraft procurement. For example when Air Mauritius agreed to purchase aircraft from Airbus rather than rival Boeing it suddenly found that it was upgraded from the Orly airport to the main Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris.

-- Viajero 20:07, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This article is a mess

I will plan on adding categories and moving the information around.

I think it needs more information on technology improvements and design differences that set it apart from Boeing; eg. fly by wire, and it's philosophy on making all models similar enough to reduce pilot training.

Pud 16:26, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why does it need to be focused on Boeing?

I agree. Just as there is a Competition with Boeing segment in the Airbus article, there should at least be a similar segment in the Boeing article. After all, Boeing is no longer a leader in the civil aviation industry.--JohnWest 00:29, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


For the comment of the non-confirmed events of bribery, in 2003 ws realease an article by "the economist" regarding this passage of Airbus http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1842124

"No longer a leader"? I know this is from a couple of years ago, but that comment just seems...odd. Maybe for a while they were no longer the leader, but to say during that time, they were no longer a leader, well... Anyhow, the situation is clearly much different now. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 21:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Reason for removing the paragraph below

"In October 2004, Boeing filed a complaint with the World Trade Organization, claiming that Airbus had violated the 1992 bilateral accord when it received what Boeing deems as "unfair" subsidies from the European Union. Airbus retaliated by filing another complaint, contesting that Boeing had also violated the accord when it received tax breaks from the U.S. Government. If the WTO arbitrates in this case (once the 60-day period of consultations set by the WTO ends), both companies could face cut-downs in financial aid from their Governments." Pulled that because of this development. [1] User:Wk muriithi

The fact that the two parties have suspended their complaints does not negate the filing of the complaints - it still happened! Does the fact that the Germany surrendered in World War II make you go to that page and remove the entire history of everything that happened prior to 1945? I think not. I will ammend the article accordingly. Mark 12:36, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Seem it is likely to go anywhere. See quote "earlier this month talks on the subsidies given to European aircraft maker Airbus and US manufacturer Boeing faltered when both EU trade commissioner Peter Mandelson and Robert Zoellick, former US Deputy Secretary of State, accused the other of hanging up the phone durign a call." [2]

Reason for removing the paragraph

"Boeing counters that Airbus benefits even more than itself on this charge, since the owners of Airbus, and its affiliated companies are Europe's largest military suppliers."

This does not follow. Boeing's WTO complaint against Airbus is that government launch aid (subisdy) is unfair. Airbus' WTO complaint was that Boeing receives tax breaks and pork barrel military contracts that are in effect subsidy. The line above suggests that Airbus benefits in the same way. THAT IS REDICULOUS.

  • Boeing is the 2nd largest contractor in a country where the government spends $417bn - Airbus partner countries spend $109.3 bn (UK $37.1bn, France $35.0bn, Germany $27.2bn, Spain (estimate) $10bn)
  • The largest European defence market (the UK) is an open, competitive system (unlike continental Europe or America). Significant portions of the UK procurement budget go to Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Thales (all non-Airbus companies). i.e. the UK partner in Airbus has to compete for its national defence budget far harder than Boeing does for its slice of $400bn!
  • EADS does have the lion's share of German defence expenditure but this is modest compared to other military budgets around the world.
  • EADS does have significant sales in France but competes with other companies (principally Thales).
  • European procurement does not suffer in the same way from the USA's "pork barrel" phenomenon. Congress consistently adds aircraft and projects to the procurement budget that neither the forces or the White House requests with the sole aim of boosting the defence contractors in their local areas.
    • The KC-767 is a prime example of this. The USAF put the replacement of their tanker fleet at the bottom of their list of priorities. Then, after the downturn in civil avation caused by the 9/11/01 attacks, CONGRESS launched the KC-767 to support Boeing. This was also against the backdrop of Boeing losing the largest contract in U.S. aviation history - the JSF.
  • Airbus' direct military contracts are modest and won in fair competitions.
    • The A330 MRTT has won the UK and Australian competitions in direct compeitions with the KC-767. The A330 was not considered for the USAF contract.
    • The A400M is a project launched to fufill a genuine requirement and likely to win significant sales around the world. It is not a pork barrel contract in the KC-767 mould.

Government launch aid, justified when Airbus was finding its feet, is unfair given Airbus' success. However I see no reason to deny Airbus such subsidy until Boeing likewise does not benefit from subsidy (tax breaks and pork barrel fodder). That is why the WTO complaints have been aborted - AIRBUS AND BOEING BOTH KNOW THEY WILL BE RULED AGAINST. Mark 01:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)


I believe that it true that one of Boeing's primary complaints about the launch aid is that repayment is contingent - if Airbus doesn't sell enough units, they don't have to repay the loans. If that's true, that is significantly different from the description in the text, which only discusses the low rate. --38.112.11.10 15:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Page move

(from WP:RM)

January 19

Airbus Industrie ceased to exist in 2001 with the establishment of the Airbus Integrated Company (Airbus S.A.S.). "Airbus" is the natural name to search for and link to - as suggested by "naming conventions". Plus of the several hundred links to Airbus Industrie all but 9 are redirected from Airbus. Mark 01:38, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • support - although I'd also support a move to Airbus Integrated Company or Airbus S.A.S. - UtherSRG 13:12, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • support - accurate and simpler -- Solipsist 15:54, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. Proteus (Talk) 16:11, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. — Ford 22:30, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)
  • support - Yeah, i agree, but definately make a note of the old names (but i suppose you were going to do this). Reedy Boy 17:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Boeing

This section was hopelessly PoV and unsubstantiated. I removed:

Industry analysts widely attribute this to Airbus’s more efficient product line, compared to many of Boeing's older designs; the 737 for example still uses components designed in the 1950s.The 747 was designed in the late 1960s, and the 757 and 767 were conceived in the late 1970s.

- as it unsourced and beside the point. Both the 747 and 737 have been extensively redesigned over the years; Airbus's 300 and 310 series are as old as the 757 and 767 lines. Dan100 (Talk) 13:02, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

The 737 may be old, but it is wildly popular still and is literally carrying the whole company. The 747 is still attractive, at least till the A380. Its the new designs from Boeings that are less popular : 757, 767 and also 777. There are persistent stories of air flow problems in the cabin compartments, and it scares passengers and airlines whether they are substantiated or not.
The 787 also looks like it may be a miss. But the 747 replacement/A380 competitor should be interesting, as is any supersonic jet in the pipeline.

Airliner Deliveries

Hi, I buy Airliner World, and am therefore able to get Airliner Delivery amounts for each month.

Would someone with some more wiki experience than me be able to do me a table? And then i can add the data for the last few months/last year.

If not, i may have a go at replicating and using the airplane data, and change it into deliveries

Cheers


Reedy Boy 17:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I just installed the firefox extensions for wiki.

I should eb able to get the table done/

Just need some input. Would you want just amounts, or amounts for each model? Let me know, and i can encorporate it

Cheers

Reedy Boy 19:25, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I am just going to do total deliveries for each month for as far back as i can. If people want indivdual model deliery amounts, let me know.

Cheers

Reedy Boy 13:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


Also, on the airbus analyst pages, there are a list of deliveries and orders for each aircraft/aircraft family. I will also add this to the airliner deliveries section, and rename it to a more appropriate title. Suggestions for this would be good.


Reedy Boy 08:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


Ive noticed that the numbers dont seem to tally on cumulative deliveries, so i need to have a look at that

Reedy Boy 08:33, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


Hi, i just changed the total deliveries per month bit for 2005 to reflect that 2005 is not over yet, it was being divided by 12, not 7 (there are data for 7 months shown). Dunno if this is ok or not, it just makes more sense to me to give a more accurate figure.

Tomas


No Probs, got some new data to add now anyway.


Reedy Boy 16:57, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Cumulative still doesnt tally. Perhaps if the breakdown by aircraft family is added, it may be possible to reconcile the numbers.


Well, the current overall Total of 4272 matches Airbus figures

I do remember there being something that didnt seem to add up, i will have a look

Reedy Boy 10:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Table formatting

I was looking at the tables, and we currently have 2 types of table formatting.

Would anyone have an problems if i changed them all to the blue topped type?

Cheers

Reedy Boy 17:02, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

This is the old formattning code (minus the ((())) ) I have posted it here, so it can be put back in if needs be

border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 95%;"

Will update the tables later

Reedy Boy 18:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


Just a note to say the table 'Product list and details (date information from Airbus)' has been updated with other formating

Cheers

Reedy Boy 12:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The sacred SI banner

Should Airbus defeat Boeing and become the largest aircraft maker with a wide margin, would it mean the aviation industry is finally metricated (as in SI)? Airplanes have no feet or knots so it is time to finally get rid of customary.

I would be happy to see SI become the natural system for aircraft specs. However I can't see Airbus ever becoming dramatically bigger than Boeing; I can't remember who, but an Airbus exec said Airbus expects Airbus and Boeing to continue to share the large aircraft market for the forseeable future, with each regaining and losing the no. 1 slot from time to time. Mark83 12:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Latest figures on 2005 orders

https://registration.ft.com/registration/barrier?referer=http://news.ft.com/home/europe&location=http%3A//news.ft.com/cms/s/cbacbbd0-872e-11da-8762-0000779e2340.html

Show Airbus leading Boeing