Talk:Ahmad Shah Abdali/Archive 1

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Contents

Good Article Reviews

I fixed some grammatical errors, but still there are many things unclear to me, when I read it:

  1. The lead section is not comprehensively summarizing the whole article. In this case, a summary of Ahmed Shah Abdali life. Please read WP:LS guideline.
  2. The quote by Elphinstone should have inline citation (I've put a tag there) and it is unclear when I read the last part of the sentence. What is the meaning and the relation of that last part, starting from "... wrote a Collection of Odes in Pushto ..." with the remaining of the quote sentence?
  3. "He was, in his youth, imprisoned in a fortress, with his elder brother Zulfikar Khan, by Husain Khan, governor of Kandahar for the Ghalzis." Why?
  4. Section Early Years is really unclear to me. I think you need to split long sentences to make them more clear.
  5. Section Commander of the Abdali Cavalry. Why is there only 1 sentence?
  6. For the remaining text, please avoid using he or she when it is unclear to whom are you pointing at.
  7. I changed Notes into References per WP:MOS. Please also follow WP:CITE guideline to put references.

This is part of GA review, as this article is put in the GA candidate list. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 10:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA Nomination

It seems that nobody is here. All right, I failed this article for GA status, per above (see Good Article Reviews in the previous section). Specifically, this article does not qualify the following GA standards:

  1. Well written — Prose is unclear. It is difficult to understand what the subject is about.
  2. Verifiability — Sources cannot be verified. Some references are not written properly. Please see WP:CITE for reference guideline.

When all this matters are resolved, this article can be renominated again. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 21:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is the solid proof showing that he was born in Multan, which is present day Pakistan??? His father was working with the government in Herat, Afghanistan, during the time Ahmad Shah was born. I am from Kandahar, Afghanistan, and my city is fairly very low populated...meaning people know one another and the history is kept well among the people....yet nobody in my city would accept Ahmad Shah being born in Multan, Pakistan. It is totally wrong to place false statements here...I suggest somebody re-edit the place of birth "Multan" to "Herat"....because it is more likely he was born in Herat or perhaps Kandahar, the place where most of his ancestors and decendants lived. Another point I want to make is that he on his own choice changed his last name from "Abdali" to "Durrani" before being the king of Afghanistan. That clearly means he wanted to be remembered by "Ahmad Shah Durrani" instead of Ahmad Shah Abdali. Therefore, Ahmad Shah "Durrani" should be his official name and Ahmad Shah "Abdali" should be his a.k.a. (Also Known As) alias name or simply birth name.NisarKand 7:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Brittanica cites his birth place as Multan as well..i have not heard the claim dsputed by anyone else. If you have references which state otherwise do post them and we can argue out the fact here. I concede your point we should rename this article Ahmed Shah Durrani.

--Zak 18:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Regrading Encyclopedia Brittanica...If you read it carefully, his assuming birth-place "Multan" is marked with this -----> "?", which means UNKNOWN.--King Nisar 16:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
it doesn't mean unknown, it means disputed, however if you have counter refernces do post them up, we can sift through where the bulk of the evidence suggests and agree on one. --Zak 14:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not disputed, either, The question-mark in Britannica is not disputing his birthplace, but the date of his birth. It's not known whether he was born in 1722 or 1723 or maybe even earlier. That's why the question-mark is placed after the date "1722". Tājik 18:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
The question mark is right after the year he was born, like this "1772?". It is the year of his birth that questioned.


re: providing 'booty' for his clan. I seriously doubt this since MTV rap culture came along much much later.

That just means treasures/gold/women/youngboys. Behnam 13:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As an Afghan historian I am 100% sure Ahmad Shah Baba was born in Herat, Afghanistan in the year 1722. During the same year his father passed away also. He most definately was not born in Multan and is not Panjabi.

In addition, his picture shows him wearing a Panjabi turban that is colored. He always wore a black turban and white clothes. Please fix your correction.

Thanks.

Aziz Rasoully

Punjabi?

Caroe theorizes that these people--half Persian and Half Paktuan (pashtun) of Kandahar-- were the ancestors of the abdali tribe, later called the Durranis, who for centuries have been the dominent tribe of western Afghanistan.   page 12, paragraph 1, sentence 11. "A MILITARY HISTORY FROM ALEXANDER THE GREAT TO THE FALL OF THE TALIBAN", BY STEPHEN TANNER.

Who said he was born in multan panjab. is that why he sacked, looted, murdered his poeple IN PUNJAB over 6 times, for the love of afghanistan. hahaha!!! COMMON SENSE. PLUS he spoke persian and pashto. he wrote a peotry about the mountain tops of afghan land. who ever claims that he was born in multa punjab is eighther uneducated. it should be immidiately changed or wikipedia is a false encyclopedia. Everything else is correct.68.229.55.91 10:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

No where does it say he was Punjabi. He was born in Multan according to scholarly authoritative sources, such as this http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9004137/Ahmad-Shah-Durrani. --Behnam 18:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


http://www.afghanan.net/afghanistan/baba/intro.htm

That is source says he might have been born in Herat and also it is not a scholarly source. It is well established that he was born in or around Multan. --Behnam 01:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

It is been well established that Ahmed Shah Abdali, the founder of modern Afghanistan was in fact 'Panjabi' born. His family, the Abdali but also other significan Pukhtun tribes such as the Gardezi's, Kakazai to name a few are and can still be found in Multan (Pakistan) today. Multan historically was a city of great learning for intellectual Pashtuns, Persians and all people(s) for that matter. It was a center of Persian and Pashto poetry during the 17th and 18th century. Infact, Abdali's village and house are still intact and inhabited by his decedents to this very day.

"punjabi" refers to people who speak "punjabi language", practice "punjabi culture", and holds "punjabi patriotism". although ahmad shah was born in a "region" that is (and or was) named "punjab", it doesn't mean he was "punjabi" by ethnicity, culture, nationality, or race. he was pashtun, who practiced his pashtun culture and spoke his pashto language. even until today, many afghans have been born in punjab since 1979-2007 but are not able to become nationals of pakistan (or nationals of punjab), meaning they are still considered afghans, and their ethnicity is the same as their parents' (pashtun, tajik, uzbek, hazara and so on). The reason to this is that pakistan does not issue nationality cards to afghans.Mirrori1 08:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Abdali had nothing to do With Afghanistan.

HERE IS THE POOF:

"و اما اسناد رسمی برای کلمه « خراسان » که نام قدیم افغانستان بوده خیلی زیاد است و از قرن پنج تا قرن نزده میلادی مدت یک و نیم هزار سال بنام خراسان مسما بوده تا دوره احمد شاه درانی هم که نامبرده با کلمه « امیر خراسان » مهر و امضا می کرد. نام افغانستان نه در کدام لویه جرگه و نه رفراندوم انتخاب شده و نه احمد شاه درانی که خود را شاه خراسان مینامید انتخاب شده، بلکه این نام در قرن نزده که یک بخش این سرزمین را انگلیس ها کنترول میکردند در اولین نامه اکلند انگلیسی وایسرای شبه قاره هند عنوان شاه شجاع بکار رفته است."

TRANSLATION FROM FARSI:

".....For over 1500 years the name of this country or land was Khorassan. Ahmad Shah Durrani, whom Afghans consider to be the founder of "Afghanistan", called himself "Amir-ul-Mulke Khorassan" and didn't have any idea what "Afghan" and "Afghanistan" were.... and with “Amir-e Khorassan” was how his papers were signed and his coins were minted. The name "Afghanistan" was not chosen through a "Loya Jirga" or a referendum, nor Ahmad Khan Abdaali, who considered himself to be a Khorassani, chose or came up with it, but this name was mentioned in a treaty between the Viceroy of the Indian Sub-Continent Lord Aukland and Persians in 19th Century and in correspondences with Shah Shujah".....

Dr Kamal Kabuli on historian Faryaar Kohzaad's writings.... www.Kabulnath.de

"Afghanistan" is a new word used in 18th century. It does show that Afghanistan was formed as a state in 18th century, but it does not mean that the people living in this territory were all part of other countries e.g. Pakistan, whose most people were part of India and the rest part of the old Afghanistan. The current Afghan territories were always known as "Khorasan". I am not going on the issue whether Khorasan was an independent state or part of Persia. Even during the government of Ahmad Shah Baba, it was called Khorasan. The name "Afghanistan" was first used in a treaty between Shah Shuja, British empire and Ranjeet Singh in 1838 in Lahore (source The reality of Political situation of Afghanistan, by Mohammad Akbar Shormach (an Afghan national)). Here are some other clues:

   * Abdullah Khan Popalzayee uses the word Khorasan when Ahmad Shah Abdali created the new city of Kandahar (of that time):

دمی که شاه شهامت مداراحمدشاه به استواری همت بنای شهر نهاد، جمال ملک خراسان شد این تازه بنا زحادثات زمانش خدا نگهدارد

so what you are saying is that all the western sources are completely wrong? all the pashtuns (40 million people), as well as many non-pashtuns are wrong? and only these (he said, she said) stuff someone said or wrote on a piece of paper are correct? this does not make any bit of sense to an average person. who are these people you use as your sources, what are their level of trust or their qualifications? show me coins that were made after 1747 stating "khorrasan" on it. the coins ahmad shah made during his empire stated "afghanistan" on them. another error i noticed is that the first treaty to contain the name "afghanistan" was not signed in 1838, the name "afghanistan" was written in a treaty in 1801. in those periods, there were no united nations, so nations were not recognized peacefully as how it is done through the UN. in the past, nations or empires used swords slashing throats, beheading people, whiping out cities, just so they are recongized as a state. when ahmad shah and his afghan army went and did some of these butcherings, the people of those areas surrendered, accepted and recognized his kingdom. i am surprised that after several hundred years we are here trying to piece together the history of afghanistan. if you go to every corner of afghanistan, regardless of ethnic or anything, all the people living in afghanistan love their title as "afghan" and they love their country as "afghanistan" even that it is poor. the reason to this is that many afghans are intermarried, they are used to not worry about ethnicity or language, but one thing i can be very clear on, that they will destroy any foreign intervention once they sense it. if there is any nation that does not recognize afghanistan, they may one day face people like taliban, who are afghans of course fighting for their country's independence. they are currently using the old style ways to make people recognize them by beheading them right away as soon as they suspect them of being a spy or a traitor. check latest news here taliban behead 7 afghan spies in 10 days. it is sick way for anyone to die this way but it is something happening. hope this will teach you what i am saying to you, about how people recognized a nation in the past.Mirrori1 04:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


Abdullah Khan popalzai was a Pashtun Poet during Abdali's reign. also as I mentioned Tarikh Ahmad Shahi(Ahmad Shah's History) which the original copy is kept in the Museum of Moscaw which Kawed Publishing company published it in 2000 show no signs of him claiming he was the king of Afghanistan. THis book was written by one of Abdali's clerks,Mahmoud Al Hussain Al Munshi ibn Al Jami and each page was reviewed in Abdali's court. This is more reliable than what Western Sources say which is influenced by Pashtun Nationalists. Most Afghanistani Historians refer Abdur Rahman Khan as the founder of Modern Afghanistan.(ex. Kohzad,Ghobar,Farhang,Ahang,Chendawuli,muhtat,reshtia...etc) --Anoshirawan 05:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

check with the government of afghanistan per your claims, this is not a political site to try to solve such issues that you seem to be trying to bring to the attention of readers or editors here. by now i am convinced that there is some kind of political issue you have with afghanistan/afghans/pashtuns/western sources/western scholars/western historian/ because you completely reject their findings, and you are boldly going with those unpopular sources you found while surfing the net, this with a very narrow mind. i suggest you look at this in a much more broader view. the pashtuns ruled afghanistan since the early 1700s, why can't you just simply recognize their kingdom and accept that as a fact. khorassan has been a persian territory since it was created and the pashtuns are not from khorassan, it is irrelevant to even assume that pashtuns would call their kingdom as the kingdom of khorassan. it's either you need help with learning history as it happened or you have some kind of grudge with pashtuns, maybe because of all these recent wars, you lost someone as a result of pashtuns or something in that nature. however, do not blame an entire race of people for this. learn to live with others who may not be the same as you. i am here confused, thinking if you are a young student or an older person who is up to something by doing this edit war. i will tell you this is not the way to solve anything, it never works for anyone. me and you both may one day be dead and somebody else will be here removing our edits or changing it so that the article may reflect their point of view. editing wikipedia is an addiction, and try not to get addicted to it, you will not be able to convince anyone with what you say. your problem is you want to define every word or sentence to readers, which is unessary and nobody in this age of time care about these minor points. if you don't have anything good to write in articles, just don't write anything. it is a sin and a bad deed to vandalis articles because you are having fun doing it or because you are angry at something, try to do something else, chat with people online and express your emotions there. that is what i do when i have issues about something. this is a learning place, where you take information from a trustful site and add it here so that people can spend less time trying to do all that search themself. like i said earlier, this wiki is just a general guide to search, it's a starting point to the full search. not many people take this wiki as official info, especially not historic articles that are here. government source is the most trustful and reliable source. they follow rules and regulations before printing anything.Mirrori1 08:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

If Ahmad Shah Abdali had nothing to do with Afghanistan, then George Washington had nothing to do with the United States. Regards. --Khampalak 18:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Khorasan vs Afghan

You are right the modern state of Afghanistan only came into being under Abdur Rahmans term, however that does not mean Abdali is any less the founder of the proto state, saying otherwise is like saying George Washington is not the founder of the US because all 50 states were not there..Abdalis vvarious titoes have been mentioned quite clearly in the Durrani lineage section so I am reverting that..similarly the British also referred to the Durrani Empire as the Kingdom of Kabul..that does not change the fact that he is considered the founder of the first Afghan Kingdom..--Zak 16:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

that's a very interesting point you've made about george washington and usa. however, about afghanistan though, the state was established by ahmad shah in 1747 not by abdur rahman. ahmad shah in his own poem clarified that he called his state "afghan land", which translates to "afghanistan", and this is what all the people of the area knew it by. the name "afghanistan" was used in a treaty in 1801, between afghanistan and persia, during which afghanistan lost its khorasan province to persians.Mirrori1 07:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Posting fake poetry that do not exist wont prove anything. --Anoshirawan 07:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Mirror1..which poem says so? He is definitely the first founder of what was to become the modern afghan state..anoshirawan fake poetry? please specify what constitutes fake? --Zak 07:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
the poem is in the bottom of this article, under section "Ahmad Shah's poetry"
Ahmad Shah wrote a collection of odes in his native Pashto language. He was also the author of several poems in Persian. The most famous Pashto poem he wrote was this:
“ "I come to you and my heart finds rest. Away from you, grief clings to my heart like a snake. I forget the throne of Delhi when I remember the mountain tops of my Afghan land. If I must choose between the world and you, I shall not hesitate to claim your barren deserts as my own." LINK ”
afghanland, afghan land or afghan-land are the english translations of afghanistan. similar as england, scotland, ireland, greenland, netherland, etc. afghanistan refered to as all the areas where the pashto speaking people lived and it's capital was kanadahar. even before 1747, kandahar was the capital of afghanistan during the periods of hotaki afghan kingdom in 1709 and beyond. on or before 1776, kabul became the new capital of afghanistan. durrani empire was not the name of the state, but just the name of the ruling dynasty. the written poem by ahmad shah is a vital clue that the land he conquered was called "afghanistan" by him.
this article is saying that what is today known as the nation of afghanistan was founded by ahmad shah. it is not saying that ahmad shah conquered a land and decided to call it "afghanistan", this is where user: anoshirawan and beh-nam are getting confused.Mirrori1 09:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe the poem says corner of pakhtuns, anyway it's a referenced quote, I am going to add amir of khorasan to his titles and reference it..if you feel something is written without an appropriate reference feel free to pooint it out before you edit it..thanks --Zak 18:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pashto poem

The Pashto poem should be removed because it does not have a source. Whoever place it here gave a source from a 'Mining Information Center (http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/8.1/features/kim/kim.htm. Obvioulsy this is not a history article, but a journal about mining. On that webpage, there is no source given for this poem. The poem should be removed until a source is given. I actually know that the source is a fictional book called Pota Khazana (Hidden Treasure), however I cannot use that book as a source since it a total work of fiction. --Behnam 21:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

does it bother you that it is a pashto poem? if it was a persian poem you would not have tried to remove it. i advice you to take this hate from mind, i see your history talking about racial issues alot. it only means one thing to us that you are a racial biased person and that will not get you anywhere good. the poem is not that important but just to show that ahmad was in deed a poet as described in the article. i think it's very important we make articles look good and not try to make them look bad, as something you are doing to many articles. you do not have anyone else to support your actions, the odds are against you so it's better that you start behaving and stop removing well sourced informations from articles.Mirrori1 21:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Please take a look at Wikipedia' policies towards making allegations. Just because there is no source for this poem does not mean you need to throw around accusations. --Behnam 21:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Beh-nam, both you and Anoshirawan insist on using Persian Cromwell as a source in your assertion that the Hotaki aren't Pashtun. Is that not fiction? We have provided several references for this poem. You have not provided a single thing that proves that this poem is fraudulent. As Mirrori1 has said, the consensus is not in your favor. Furthermore, do not lecture others on Wikipedia policies when you know that your conduct is not inline with those policies. Don't accuse others of using unreliable sources when in fact you are using unreliable, biased sources. Don't accuse others of behaving in an ethnocentric way when everything that you have done and said has an undercurrent of ethnocentrism. You will have to stop this at some point. --Khampalak 15:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have not used Persian Cromwell as a source yet, however that issue is not related to this article. Discuss that on the appropriate discussion page. There has not been a single source for this poem so far. If you do have a source, provided here and I'll even add it back for you. --Behnam 16:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Beh-nam, you aren't listening to anything I'm saying. I've provided several sites that attribute this poem to Ahmad Shah Abdali. The literature that says otherwise is not credible as it goes on to imply that the Pashto language and culture goes back no further than 250 years. Why are you trying so hard to make this and other articles negative? Please do not deny this. If you do not have anything constructive to offer, then stop trying to remove valid edits.--Khampalak 17:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
You have not provided a single source for this poem as I have looked all over this talk page and the history of the article. If you have a source for the poem provide it here and like I said before I'll add it and cite it for you. --Behnam 18:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
This issue goes beyond this article Beh-nam. You don't seem to mind Anoshirawan using pages that simply have a word match on "Afghanistani" as justification for having that fictitious word in the Demography of Afghanistan article. What I see is a blatant double standard. Again, do not deny it. It is clear to anyone observing this mess of a discussion. The references I've provided attribute the poem to Ahmad Shah Abdali. Unless you can come up with a more reliable/verifiable source that says otherwise, the poem stays. --Khampalak 18:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
And since you seem to have such difficulty finding the references that ARE in the article, here are the links to the webpages that I have cited.
http://www.afghanan.net/poets/ahmadshahbabapoetry.htm
http://www.afghan-web.com/culture/poetry/pops/lvnation.html
http://www.afghan-network.net/Ahmad_Shah/ahmad_shah_poem.html
That's a Pashto version and two English interpretations. Again, I've been looking at your contributions in other articles, including the Khushal Khan --Khampalak 20:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)Khattak one. Even there you replaced the poem with one that put a negative light on Pashtuns. Unless your motivation is to make all articles about Afghan figures negative, why would you put that there in place of an existing Khattak poem? I'm intelligent enough to recognize a pattern of behavior Beh-nam. Do not take me for a fool. --Khampalak 18:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you still understand what is meant by a source. Those are websites with the poem, but not one of them indicate the source! Where is this poem from? And please don't tell me Pota Khazana. --Behnam 19:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The Khushal Khan Khattak article is a different article. I will not bother with your accusations, however I will say that poem is all over the internet and I have provided links and a source for. The following is a source C. Biddulph, Afghan Poetry Of The 17th Century: Being Selections from the Poems of Khushal Khan Khattak, London 1890. Please understand what is meant by a source and provide one if you want that poem, written by author of Pota Khazara, to say. Also, stop throwing around accusations. --Behnam 19:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't have to throw around accusations. Your behavior speaks for itself. This matter does go beyond any one article. Since you have said that websources are not valid, I demand you remove Anoshirawan's "Afghanistani" material from the Demographics of Afghanistan article. He has cited nine webpages that merely have a word match on "Afghanistani". Lets see if you apply these standards to yourself and Anoshirawan. --Khampalak 19:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
The issue here is, where is this poem from? While the term Afghanistani already existed and needed sources to prove that it is used. In this case we do not know if this poem was written by Ahmad Shah Abdali or fabricated by someone else (though I know it was fabricated in Pota Khazana I'll leave that out and wait for your source). --Behnam 20:12, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Beh-ham, honestly I'm tired of this. Unless you have something new to say, I'm ending this discussion. The poem stays. The more you insist on continuing these arguments, the more apparent you are making your biases and motives. You don't need my help in doing that. --Khampalak 20:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

This was a Poem written by the Pashtu Tolana in the 20th century. Ahmad Shah Durrani's Divan(Divan Ahmad Shah Durrani) was published in Kabul during Dost Muhamad Khan's rule and it did not have this in it. --Anoshirawan 21:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You have no shame. Neither of you. If you only could practice what you preach. But that's probably asking too much. Your obsession with Pashtuns and Afghanistan is something that will get you nowhere. If you get the chance, look into the following word. Make sure you know what it means. Perhaps then you'll know what you are lacking.

integrity - adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

Your Persian/Khorasani/whatever forefathers would probably be ashamed of you. --Khampalak 21:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh and before you claim that the word integrity doesn't exist, here's a reliable source.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=integrity

--Khampalak 21:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)