Talk:Agape

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[edit] Agape vs. Eros

"Greek philosophers at the time of Plato used it in a way that suggested a universal - as opposed to a personal - love; this could mean love of truth, or love of humanity" - I don't think this statement is correct. As I understood from my classes on the philosophy of love, in ancient Greece, agape is a descending type of love where one aids one below them, even in the most minuscule way. The love of truth, beauty, etc is eros.

Observes Pope Benedict XVI in Deus Caritas Est

"In philosophical and theological debate, these distinctions have often been radicalized to the point of establishing a clear antithesis between them: descending, oblative love-agape-...ascending, posessive or covetous love-eros-would be typical of...Greek culture." (DCE, #7, USCCB Publishing 2006)

Niasain 16:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Plato stated that EROS (Selfish Love) cannot be divine since a god/goddess should not have any needs outside of themselves. I have come to this conclusion: AGAPE (Selfless love) doesn't seek anything for itself and therefore it is the only type of LOVE that can be considered divine. All other types of Love can have elliments of both of these types of love in them... Ndmonger 19:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I'm not going to remove it, but the definition of the English word "agape" on this page seems to raise a question: although this is not a dictionary, should a clarifying pronunciation guide ever be given (in this case, something like "ah-gah-pay")? Then we could avoid confusion when people encounter an unfamiliar word. Perhaps in this case, providing the Greek spelling is sufficient. I don't think the English definition, for what is really a different word, should be here. Joshuabowman

[edit] Hmm...a question.

How does one obtain this love?

--JFB

jfritzyb@yahoo.com

For Christian agape? Prayer. Niasain 16:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


For Christian agape? Well, prayer is a way of 'reciprocating' (that sounds terrible, I know) agape, but it is given to all, not just Christians, freely. Doesn't depend on us besides that we should accept this love.


To obtain Agape? [AGAPE - freely giving, unconditional, un-selfcentered love].

You cannot OBTAIN this love by yourself, since this love can only be given. For this love is always moving and is only Agape if it is being freely passed to another person. BUT to experiance this love, here are a few suggestions...
1. Desire to Love (Agape) in this way.
2. Work on not being Egocentric
3. Start looking out for what's in the best interest of friends & enemies alike. Placing their needs above your own. Giving value to others' lives even above your own life. What is so amazing about this type of love is that as you are loving an enemy this way, they can (not always, expecially at first) become your friend. In his Book "A Good Heart" when his Holiness the Buddhist Dalai Lama was presented with this concept of loving your enemies, he stated that if you don't practice compassion toward your enemy then on whom can you practice it, and then implied that animals cannot love this way...
4. Keep loving everyone this way even if they are mean to you and hurt you even to the point of death. (In other words, pratice loving in this fashion at all times; though rain, snow, and dark of night.) As Aristotle said, "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." So to have this love, you must make it a part of yourself, make it a habit to always look out for everyone else's (Friend & Foe's) best interest...
5. Accept the Source of this AGAPE Love into your heart and God (the source of Agape) will start pouring this love through you out to others...
Welcome to the ROOT philosophy of Christianity, GOD is the source of this selfless love, AGAPE...
1 John 4:16b - God is love (agape), and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God in him.
Ndmonger 19:25, 31 March 2006

[edit] NPOV Dispute

Should this article really reflect only New Testament understandings? Besides, it seems a bit...biased. But to JFB - patience. Let me know on my User's Discussion page if you want to discuss it. Chris Weimer 05:19, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I came to this page for comparisons between Greek and Christian agape. It is definately biased towards Christianity. I'm going to add a warning until it is fixed. That being said, the Greeks often cared little for agape. It is due to Saint Paul that agape became a good.

Niasain 16:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If someone would care to perhaps add something, I'm sure that'd make it better. I don't think it's exactly NPOV, since it doesn't glorify Christianity. It's just not completely detailed, is all. Artiste-extraordinaire 09:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


I heard in a sermon that Agape Love is similar to the love of a man and woman in marriage. After the Eros love for each other begins to fade away, we still choose to love our spouse through Agape Love. One chooses to love their husband or wife. It is this love that ultimately binds a marriage together. In a similar fashion, when love is mentioned in religious contexts, this is the type of love that is being referred to. John Egan.

Greek views have been included, as well as a toned down discussion of the Christian viewpoint (5 different references to the same idea are not needed). Post if there are any further disputes. pookster11 01:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing the disclaimer. Niasain 08:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John's Definition of God

I personally think that it would be interesting to add to this portion the fact that Reverend Casey from the Grapes of Wrath, in his discouraged ramblings, talked about how the Holy Spirit might just be the love for one's fellow man that all people feel. I don't know how appropriate this would be to the article, nor would I make the changes myself (I'm not bold enough). So, this is merely a suggestion. - unsigned

I think it would be best not to add this. Niasain 16:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason AGAPE seems biased toward Christianity is that Christianity's main focus is: AGAPE. Take Agape away from Christianity, and it wouldn't have become a religion. The Christian's God is AGAPE. No other religion holds AGAPE so high... Christianity teaches: Love (AGAPE) one another...

As Buddah put it: "After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and gain of one and all, then accept it practice it, and live up to it."

Isn't the goal of AGAPE for everyone else's interest? For if we place our interests before the needs of others, then what's in thier best interest is going to be over looked...

Ndmonger 21:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Writing the word Agapē implies a long e in the last syllable. I thought agape rhymed with "take home pay". I'm moving the page to agape. Uncle Ed 16:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] MLK

Much has been made of Martin Luther King Jr's use of agape in his writings and oratory. There is probably some value in incorporating this into the article.

[edit] THEOLOGICAL TERMINOLOGY

Beyond the etymological origin of the Greek word "agape", it became a favored word for the demonstration of Godly "love" in the Koine Greek of the New Testament writers. Over the course of time Christian theologians have used the term "agape" (or the redundant "agape love") when referring to the theological concept of God's love. Thus over the course of time they have transformed the word of classical Greek philosophic language into a Christian theological term via the common/Koine Greek of the New Testament writers. I like cheese.

[edit] Agape in Christianity

I agree, that if we want a more comprehensive and historical view of "Agape" something more can be added to describe agape according to the Greeks. However, since there is a subtitle "Agape in Christianity" I do not think that it is biased. It accurately describes it.

[edit] I Disagree

Perosnally, I think that we need to merge this into 1 Corinthians, if we have such a page. Implificator 20:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)--

Why not 1 Corinthians 13? I already added the merge tags. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 23:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Why merge it? It discusses a specific concept that is not necessarily monopolised by the Bible, where as the verse shows the specific Biblical context of agape. Not always mutually inclusive. spider, 9:44PM (UTC) 29 September 2006

Agreed. While both Christianity and Agape share essential ties, Christianity (or, more to your point, Corinthians 13) does not encapsulate all utilizations of Agape.

Moreover, to fuse Agape to a singular perspective (Christianity) is to commit an act of arrogance; other religions / philosophies have expressions that can (perhaps) be argued to be more concise versions of Agape.

I think the article might need something of an overhaul to reduce the impression that Agape is a predicate of Christianity. (unsigned anonymous comment)

Please name some non-Christian religious traditions where this terminology is actually used. I am only aware of Christianity that uses the term "Agape" as specifically Christian terminology, much like words such as "moksha" etc. are specifically Hindu terminology and are meaningless outside the context of Hinduism. Do you have any source of a contemporary non-Christian group that uses this same terminology? Now, drawing parallels with parallel concepts in other religions, that is a different matter and should be allowed, assuming that they too can be sourced. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The only word which might have united the two versions is 'Caritas' which has connotations of both public and private love. But who would understand that word now? ThePeg 12:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humble Request

Is there any way in which the quotation from Paul's letter to the Corinthians could use the King James version or the Tyndale version upon which it is based? Both are so much more powerful and resonant.

An interesting point on this very quote is highlighted by the difference between these two versions. The King James version translates Agape as 'Charity', Tyndale, on whose version the King James is based, translates it as 'Love'. The effect is enormous as the two words have very different connotations to the reader. Tyndale deliberately left it as 'Love' because he believed the Bible was for individuals and not to be distorted by the structure of the Church. 'Charity' suggests public works, 'Love' is something which is emotional and spiritual and takes place between individuals. I sometimes wonder how we would have evaluated Paul had we followed Tyndale in this. The passage becomes so much more moving and powerful.

KJV translates the term as "Charity" because it is a translation of the Vulgate, not of the original Greek texts. The Latin term used is "Caritas" from which we derive the cognate "charity". The original Greek is Agape. There is no deeper spiritual meaning beyond simply the source from which the English was translated. pookster11 05:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major Edits

In a sincere attempt to be genuinely helpful, I invested in reorganization and additions to the article. Agreeing with User:Codex Sinaiticus on 7 Dec 2006 that only Christianity uses the term "Agape," I added more NT basis for such prominent use of the term within Christianity. That basis exclusively is in the NT.

No one has added to the article any extra-Christian use of the term today. The Founder of Christianity used the term (or probably an Aramaic equivalent since that's what He spoke) as the foundation of Christian distinctives. Since most of the claims and even criticisms of the Christian understanding of "agape" in the article showed no citation or reference, they cannot be substantiated. I attempted to retain everything for which I could locate independent substantiation, and even some plausible claims for which I could not find substantiation.

My hope is that you, as a reader of this, will provide feedback below, both pro and con. If I have messed up or deleted something you think should be corrected or reverted, I'd love to know that--rather than the total revert that just happened. My sincerest apologies if I offended you. That certainly was not my intent. I am a relative newcomer to Wiki, and am very much still learning both about Wiki and sensitivities. My intent is good; my methods are not yet as mature and wise as I hope someday they will be. PBPGINTWMY. Thanks very much. Afaprof01 05:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, when you simply cut out everything you don't like and move everything left all around in a different order, all in one fell swoop, it makes it a lot of trouble to try to figure out exactly what it was in the 1000 bytes that got cut - in fact, too much trouble. If you are going to do it that way, would you please paste the parts that were cut out, here on the talk page, so everyone can analyze them and see if they agree that they should have been cut. It may well be that your version really is a big improvement and that nobody can dispute this, but all I can tell from looking at the diff, without taking all day at it, is that it looks like a totally different article than it did before... Several things seem to have been cut out, others added, and others look like they were cut, then it turns out they were just moved and shifted around... but with complex changes to complex subjects like this, it's usually much better to explain precisely what you want to do first and then justify why you want to put things in a different order etc., without leaving it to other editors to figure out what you did and why... or else, please make the edits slowly and gradually, one at a time, so others can at least follow what you are doing! Sorry for any misunderstanding... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the explanation and suggestions. Very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand. I now agree. Afaprof01 03:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charity and Agape

Hi, Agape and Charity are two separate articles. Would there be any grounds for merging them? Mattmm 19:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, they are two different topics and two different Greek words with two very different meanings. pookster11 05:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Really? The article seems to suggest they are synonymous. "In Christian theology charity, or love (agapē), ...". Please explain what's going on! Thanks Mattmm 11:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The equating of "charity" and "agape" in Christian theology comes from the fact that most Engish Bibles are translated from the Latin Vulgate rather than the original Greek texts. St. Jerome translates the Greek "Agape" into the Latin word "Caritas", which is an cognate in the English language of the word "Charity". This is where the confusion stems from. The Greek cognate for the English "charity" is "Kharis", which is independent from and completely different than the word "Agape". pookster11 19:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the info Pookster11. Etymological considerations aside there does seem to be some overlap going on here. "The Christian concept of charitable love" is actually defined in various places on wikipedia: Agape#Agape in Christianity; Charity (Virtue)#Religous Charity; Love (religious views)#Christian. All of these quote 1 Corinthians 13 at length (the second one quotes it in its entirety). I was just wondering if anyone felt that some cleanup could be done. I appreciate that this would be difficult and yes, merging may well not be the way to go. Mattmm 19:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Except that this article is about the Greek word "Agape", not Christian Theology. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.97.227.219 (talk) 18:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC).
What's going on is that this is a wiki, that anyone can write. Appealing to one wikipedia article (that anyone can write) as the only basis for overturning another wikipedia article, is usually not a good thing. Actually they are not both Greek words, one is Latin; but in modern English usage they are not the same thing at all, which is the most relevant consideration for the English wikipedia. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)