Talk:Adrian Rogers
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In the Thelogy section the statement "(he appears to misinterpret 5-point Calvinism as the same as HyperCalvinism)" seems odd. HybridFusion 09:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Recent Changes
Since Dr. Rogers death, there have been multiple anon editors that have removed or substantially altered two or three sections of this article. I wanted to discuss some of these changes, and especially the recent changes made by 70.60.84.90.
First, regarding the theological/ideological tilt of the SBC, I don't know whether the SBC was conservative historically or not. However, I am certain that the SBC, as a whole, somewhat moderate by the late 1970s, given that, at the very least, there were moderate pastors in leadership positions. This hasn't been the case since 1979 when Rogers was elected (whether he was the catalyst or merely a symptom is debatable, and the article doesn't really take a position). Thus, it is an accurate description to say that Rogers' election precipitated a sharp rightward shift in the denomination, and news obituaries (including the AP obit cited in the article) agree on this point. Casting rightward shifts as "return to historical roots" (whether the description fits the situation or not, and i'm not passing judgment on this particular situation) is a common conservative rhetorical tool (this is especially true in politics), and is employed quite often when rightward shifts of any nature occur. Thus, describing the shift as a return to historical roots in this article is POV and inappropriate, in my opinion.
Second, I am not entirely familiar with Rogers' involvement in the revision of the Baptist Faith and Message. I imagine that the article should more thoroughly describe his involvement, assuming that this is done in an NPOV manner.
Finally, the slavery quote. It has been deleted repeatedly, without explanation, by anons. A more recent revision didn't remove the quote, but attempted to defend it by stating that it was "taken out of context" (stating that Rogers was talking about biblical slavery, not 18th and 19th century slavery). First, this apology doesn't make logical sense, given that Rogers tied his statement to welfare, not the Hebrews, linking his statement to contemporary America, which casts doubt on the anon's explanation. Second, and this is just my personal opinion here, maybe slavery, in any context, is unjustifiable. My personal prejudice against slavery aside, the "take it in context" explanation given doesn't make logical sense given my first argument. - Jersyko 21:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- 1) I totally agree that the wording of "return to historical roots" is inappropriate. When I read the edit for the first time, I was struck by it. In my mind, that phrasing makes the sentence sound in favor of the shift and is also misleading because as we all well know that "conservatism" now is different than how it was defined 50 years ago. A more accurate and neutral phrase should be used.
- 2) Further agreement on more info desired on the topic of Roger's involvement in the BFM.
- 3) Most people do not like to be called racists, and I do not think that the article directly states that. The quote could possibly be intrepreted as a moment when Rogers showed a poor choice of words, considering the history of conservative southern churches and racism. Nonetheless, wikipedia does not need to begin a habit in selectively omitting information that some people find offensive. As long as the article is NPOV, potential problems are usually avoided. Any more information on his views of race would be welcome, just as his support in revising the BFM. The quotation in the article is referenced from a published source and other related references about his life can be included. If that first quote is misleading to Roger's life, then the other facts can help to better fully describe his views/actions. -Dozenist talk 01:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- Here is a question posted on my talk page by an anon followed by my response. I think it might be useful to have this on this talk page, so I'm reproducing it here. - Jersyko
Why are you insisting on including reference to a one-time "slavery" comment that was obviously taken out of context? That does not at all define who Adrian Rogers was, as all that knew him can attest. If this reference has to be included, there should be a reference to a rebuttal as well. - 70.60.86.45 (unsigned anon)
- Hi, thanks for your comment. While I did not add the slavery quote to the Adrian Rogers article in the first place, I do think, after some consideration, it belongs in the article. While the quote is taken out of context, as quotes often are, I think the contextual issue as it has been presented is not very relevant, as I explain on the article's talk page (see above).
- I am all for offering evidence in the article that Dr. Rogers was not, in fact, a racist or a supporter of slavery. I think the article does indicate, in the sentence following the slavery quote, that Dr. Rogers was not a racist or a slavery supporter, but more could be added. I'm vaguely familiar with a story about when Dr. Rogers was fairly new at Bellevue and told some deacons, who were contemplating not allowing African-Americans to join the church, that he would resign in protest if they decided to ban blacks from the church. I would love to see something about this in the article, assuming that it's true and a source for the story can be found. If you can find verification for this story, and can add something in the article about it in a neutral point of view manner, I, among other editors, would welcome such an addition, i'm sure. - Jersyko talk 22:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
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- I just wanted to point out that a story like that, if eventually is included in the article, would be best to be referenced to some sort of source that can be verified by others. An eyewitness account technically is a source, but something we can all find (like a book, reputable website, etc.) would be better. Otherwise, the story can easily be called into question. -Dozenist talk 01:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] More on recent changes
Being unfamiliar with the Wiki protocols, I made revisions to Dr. Rogers' article before registering here. None of them were in any way inappropriate--yet, rather than just changing things back, I will explain them, and give others the opportunity to restore the previous, appropriate changes, so that there's no back-and-forth between deleting and replacing.
When one confesses lack of information regarding the ideology of an organization, one puts oneself in the position of being unable to judge whether or not statements regarding that organization are, or are not, accurate. Any research into the history of the SBC, regardless of the viewpoint of the information, will make it clear that the SBC had drifted from its historical conservatism by the 1970s; even the Wiki article on the Convention makes that obvious. The idea that the truthful statement saying the denomination returned "to its historical roots" is merely a "conservative rhetorical tool" is nonsense--unless it's wrong to have the truth as a tool. At best, such an accusation is POV in and of itself.
The slavery quote is from a single, unreliable source--an individual who wrote a book and took no pains to make it "NPOV," yet the quote is taken to be not only legitimate, but worthwhile in this article. It should either be amplified, as it was, or deleted altogether.
If these edits need to be discussed, then let's discuss them. Otherwise, I will reinstate the changes I made previously, changes that make the article more accurate and not pejorative. Mike Bratton
- In response: Any research into the history of the SBC, regardless of the viewpoint of the information, will make it clear that the SBC had drifted from its historical conservatism by the 1970s; even the Wiki article on the Convention makes that obvious. Perhaps you are correct. However, the phrase is a common conservative rhetorical tool (as I say above, I'm not passing judgment on whether you have used it as such). Is the current phrasing about Dr. Rogers' presidency precipitating a shift to the right inaccurate? Then why, may I ask, would you prefer to describe the shift in the way you have described if the most simple, universally understandable explanation is "rightward shift"? I stand by my statements regarding this in the above section.
- The slavery quote is from a single, unreliable source--an individual who wrote a book and took no pains to make it "NPOV," yet the quote is taken to be not only legitimate, but worthwhile in this article. It should either be amplified, as it was, or deleted altogether. I think consensus has been reached on this issue, and it has been explained well enough in the above sections of this page (it involves adding a bit to that section, which hasn't been done yet). Also, regardless of whether that particular cited source is reliable, at least one editor initially attempting to remove the quote admitted that the quote was accurate (though taken out of context). - Jersyko talk 21:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
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- A tool is a tool. Indicting the tool because it had the temerity to be used wrongly would mean blaming a baseball bat for being used by vandals to knock down a mailbox. The SBC was a conservative denomination; in the mid-1960s and into the 1970s, it began a drift to the left, which was reversed in the late 1970s. This is not opinion, and there is no "perhaps" about it; people on both sides of the SBC debate agree about the timeframe, and about the outcome. Merely referring to the "Conservative Resurgence" as a "rightward shift" only tells half the story, and is thus inaccurate. Objections to the phrase "return to its historical roots" are groundless, since they seek to argue well-established facts.
- Ed Babinski has an anti-Christian agenda to push, and is not a reputable source. An Internet debating acquaintance of mine, Dave Armstrong, relates this quote from Mr. Babinski regarding his worldview: "I am frankly sick of religion, and (sic) it's middle men, and polite attempts to suggest everyone else is in eternal error by them and their beliefs."
- Scores of lazy reporters have picked up on the manipulated quote--stripped of context which had been added, mind you--and have used it in attempts to taint Dr. Rogers' reputation; anyone involved with irresponsibly removing the contextual information bears at least some responsibility for these acts.
- Even the slightest effort to research the quote would've yielded this contextual information in a review, by Chad Brand on the founders.org website, of the book "The Godmakers": "Gourley's use of his sources is also problematic. Granted that he makes use almost exclusively of sources whose authors have a vested interest to critique the conservative resurgence. But does he use those sources accurately? In many cases he does not. In Chapter Four he critiques the conservative movement for its racism. "It is a tragedy, however, that the white God which Southern Baptists of the 1800s worshipped is still alive in the minds of many Southern Baptists, particularly in fundamentalist circles" (p. 75). As a prime example he presents this: ". . . Adrian Rogers, fundamentalist pastor and past SBC president, recently revealed his racist beliefs when asked about slavery: `Well, I believe slavery is amuch-maligned institution. If we had slavery today, we would not have this welfare mess'" (p. 75). Gourley seeks with this quote to prove that Rogers is a racist in his attitude toward African-Americans. The footnote for this comment cites an essay by Cecil Sherman, former head of the CBF. But when one looks at the essay by Sherman, an entirely different perspective is apparent. Sherman asked Rogers the question about slavery in the context of their work together on the Peace Committee. But the question he asked was about slavery in the Bible, not the American institution of racial subservience. This is very plain in Sherman's essay ("Moderate Responses to the Fundamentalist Movement," in Walter Shurden, ed., The Struggle for the Soul of the SBC, p. 36). Sherman did not take Rogers' comment to refer to the American institution of Southern injustice, and there is no reason why Gourley should have taken the text in this manner, either. One may disagree with Rogers' statement in any event, but to twist his words willfully in order to score a rhetorical point is unconscionable reporting."
- I heartily agree with the last sentence in that last quote. Mike Bratton
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- Rather than merely rehash my responses to what you're saying here, I'll simply refer to my prior comments on essentially the same subjects. I'll also refer to Dozenist's comments in the same section regarding the "return to historical roots" language and adopt his position as my own. - Jersyko talk 17:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
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- After reading all of this, I still don't understand why the author of the slavery statement is not named if you are using his statement. Otherwise it appears to have no validity. Can't you replace "one author" with a name? - Odestiny 18:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Either get a good citation on this slavery quote or remove it. The citation link for the slavery remark is pretty much a dead link. If this is a real quote, get a real citation, and a legitimate one that can be validated. It's been over a year since I requested the same thing. If someone is prepared to stand up and accept responsibility for the quotation and face up to the legal challenges it will present then do so. Otherwise it needs to be removed. Odestiny (talk) 02:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Random
This is a random thought, and does not belong in the article, but Dr. Rogers had the strongest hand-shake grip of any man ever. If you weren't on guard, he'd crush your hand. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Even though I disagreed with most of his views, I can't deny he was a great guy. I'm sure he'll be missed. - orioneight (talk) 03:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I have been a life long Southern Baptist and have a father and grandfather who are both ordained ministers within the Denomination. I would simply like to point out that it is futile to argue over the historical validity of certain stances presently held by the Convention. The Baptist movement in general has a very long and detailed history. Unlike protestant groups, like the Methodists, who formed out of the theology of a singular individual (John Wesley, or a single group of individuals if you count his brother Charles and others associated with them), the Baptist movement has developed out of several essentially independent movements. In truth, it appears that the belief in a cognitive profession of faith as a prerequisite for baptism and the belief in the independence of the individual congregations, may be the only two characteristics common among all Baptist sects. From the very beginning, there have been Baptist groups that have tended towards more Anabaptist theological roots and there have others who have tended towards more Calvinistic theological roots. This variety was still present when Baptist congregations began forming in the United States. While there were several factors that led to the formation of the Southern Baptist Convention, theological differences (of the sort in question) played a very minor role. Not because they were universally agreed upon, but because the issues surrounding the rift were of a wholly different nature. Because of this those who claim the current theological stance as historical have just as valid of an argument as those who oppose them. It is sad that these disagreements have been able to fester the way they have. Baptists have a strong tradition of independence that unfortunately seems to have been lost on the Convention, with groups on both sides being at fault. Let’s hope this needles quarreling soon comes to an end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.155.122.251 (talk • contribs) .
I deleted the slavery quotation attributed to doctor Rogers simply because there was no source listed for this quote. When I clicked on the reference number to see where this quote came from there was a link to ouramericanvalues.org which was actually the source for the quote before this one.
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:AdrianRogersPhoto.jpg
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