Talk:Activities prohibited on Shabbat

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Contents 1 Usefullness of Article 2 How to list each Melacha 3 Torah or Talmud 4 Melacha #37: מבעיר 5 Template not to pasken halacha 6 Order of Planting and Plowing 7 Should we be using Template:Infobox Halacha 8 order 9 Removing tying text: copyright 10 Pictures

[edit] Usefullness of Article

We alreayd have all of this information in the article on Shabbat. This is a duplicate, with a confusing name that most Wikipedia users would never even think to search under. We should merge this with Shabbat. RK 13:01, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

keep and expand I think this should be used as a start to make an article about every melacha (cooking, sewing, etc..) and every concept assosiated with melachas of shabbos (pesik reasha, davar sha'aino mitcaven, melacah sh'ainino sericah legofo etc) Jon513 18:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, but that's a maasive undertaking (i.e. rewriting masechet shabbat.) . But I'm in if you'll help. Reuvenk 02:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

But it also needs a renaming. Activites prohibited on Shabbat? --David.alex.lamb 03:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. How about "39 categories of activity prohibited on Shabbat." A bit longwinded, but clear. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reuvenk (talk • contribs) .

OK by me. Do you want to do the move? --David.alex.lamb 03:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Move completed Reuvenk 15:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to list each Melacha

I think we should start making pages for each melacha. How should we name them? I think start each one as "melacha:" - melacha:cooking for example. i know that disamb call for "cooking (melacha)" or the like, but it is not really about cooking - it's about shabbos. what do you think?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jon513 (talk • contribs) .

Since we agreed to "keep and expand," we should added the info to this article - maybe make a subsection for each melacha. Let's discuss. Reuvenk 19:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that makes sense. If any malacha gets large, them we can discuss moving to its own article Jon513 21:26, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torah or Talmud

First, see this rv.

I believe that it should say Torah, because the Rabbis of the Talmud use the verses Torah to extrapolate the laws - the Rabbis did not choose what the laws should be. For that matter, maybe I should add something regarding the Mishkan being the source of the 39 AV Melachot. I would edit this now, but it's getting close to shabbat, so I'll edit later. -Reuvenk 20:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be up to a Jewish person to decide whether "Torah" or "Talmud" is better -- so go for it, after Shabbat. But after that, I'm inclined to merge with the Shabbat article as suggested above. --David.alex.lamb 02:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm convinced that Torah should be there (I talked it over with a few friends). I'm going to give others a chance to give their $.02, but then I'm changing it. Also, see the comment above ("Keep and expand") as to why we're not merging (at least not yet). Reuvenk 03:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll add a section about how we get to 39 (e.g. the 39 mentions of the word melacha) and also other reasons. Also, we should discuss the relationship to the mishkan. Reuvenk 19:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Melacha #37: מבעיר

Is it kindling or is it transferring? Reuvenk 22:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Very common error among Ashkenazim who do not vocalize the letter ayin: מבעיר = kindling, מעביר = transferring. --Keeves 12:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Based on the above, I am now changing the translation of this category from "transferring" back to "kindling". Note that the change to "transferring" was made by Reuvenk on 19 Feb. ... Actually, given that "kindling" is the common translation of "madlik", I'd like to use something else for "mav'ir". Both kindling and igniting suggest that only the inital flame is included, so I'm going to use "Making something burn", which sounds most literal to me. "Mav'ir" = "Making bo'er"; the problem is that something is burning, not that a fire is being made. --Keeves 12:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template not to pasken halacha

I believe that we need a template to remind people that Wikipedia is NOT a place to pasken Halacha. (I believe that the Hebrew wikipedia has a policy to this effect). Comments? Reuvenk 17:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've found a template on the Hebrew Wikipedia that's like what I'm describing. See he:תבנית:הלכה Reuvenk 17:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've created a template to warn people from paskening halacha from wikipedia. I've put a copy below, but lets continue the discussion on the Template's talk page. Reuvenk 17:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The following has information on Halacha. Do not use Wikipedia to decide Halachic questions on your own. Rather, contact a Rabbi.

[edit] Order of Planting and Plowing

The section listing the 39 melachot begins with the following sentance: "The 39 activities are based on the Mishna Shabbat 7:2." OK, so I agree with that. So, why does the list here begin with plowing/choresh, if the mishna lists zoreh first. I know the Gemara says that thats only the case in Israel, and I know the Rambam lists the melachot in the order that its currently in. But if we're goint to say its based on mishna shabbat 7:2, then it should be zoreh, choresh etc (and not choresh, zoreh, etc.) I'm going to make the change, add a discussion on this in the artcile itself, and if we later want to move them back, then ok. Lets Discuss. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 04:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should we be using Template:Infobox Halacha

It currently uses just the words "See also." Also, if we subst the infoboxes, then we could add additional sources, as needed. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 13:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

as the form of the infobox is not finalized (see: Template talk:Infobox Halacha) it would not be apropiate to use subset. As far as using a lot of infobox halacha template I think we should hold off for the moment, as I don't think it would look good to have most of the page boxes Jon513 17:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

agreed. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 17:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] order

Why follow the order in the Mishna, and not the order of the Rambam and (all? most?) later sources. It is an article on Melachot, and as such should be present logically. The Mishna does not seek to present a logic order, but to present an order from which other stuff can be derived. Jon513 18:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing tying text: copyright

I've removed the delta of

15:38, 18 January.61.117.170 (Talk) (→Tying)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=39_categories_of_activity_prohibited_on_Shabbat&diff=101619140&oldid=99702094

since it looks to me like copyrighted text. Unless someone can make the case that we have permission to use, it should remain out or be summarized. If you're going to cut-and-paste a massive amount of text, I think it requires some statement about whether it can reasonably come from there. Attribution isn't enough. --Vonfraginoff 11:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

do you know that it is copyrighted or does it look copyrighted. I also suspected copyright violation because of the amount of text inserted at one time but I don't think that that is enough to remove it. All edits are assumed legal until proven otherwise. Jon513 13:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Where did the "all edits are assumed legal" rule come from? Clearly, the person involved had an electronic copy of the Ribiat text available and cut-and-pasted it in. If they had taken the time to get permission from Feldheim or Ribiat, I'm sure they would have put a note in. Meanwhile, the anonymous editor hasn't chimed in, so it hardly seems necessary to write a polite note to Feldheim asking them if they've published a chapter of their book under the GFDL.

I think the rule you're referring to is WP:Assume good faith, which means in this case to assume ignorance of copyright law, not that they went and made contact with the publisher. I am happy to assume that the anonymous poster didn't intend to break Feldheim's copyright on purpose, but I'd be really' surprised if that isn't what's happened --Vonfraginoff 10:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

There pictures that are curently posted should be removed and shown should be pictures of Jews doing these things, and then punished becasue it was done on the sabath day. this will make the article much more clear.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.53.14.251 (talk • contribs).

I am not sure if you are joking; it is hard to tell on the internet. If you think that the article would be improved by different pictures, please take them yourself read the image policy and upload them. If you need any help you can ask here, or ask me personally on my talk page. Jon513 10:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Jon, he's joking! lol -- Y not? 12:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)