Talk:Achaeans

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[edit] Misc.

Hmmmmm. "The Achaeans were the people of ancient Greece." the people is too narrow when you have Mycenaeans and Dorians, both of whom were Greek-speakers, jostling the Achaeans on either chronological side. --MichaelTinkler.

Everything I have seen equates the Mycenaeans and Achaeans as one and the same people. We sure the Achaeans were late invaders? Btw, Greek civilization had already fallen apart by the time the Dorians showed up.

Well, something happened to the Mycenaeans, and some people still believe in invaders. I don't particularly, myself. --MichaelTinkler.

Right, but those people who believe in invaders believe in Dorian invaders, not Achaean invaders. The usual date for the Achaean migration is around 1600-1500 BC, before the Mycenaean city centres formed. I really think the page is wrong to draw the distinction it does, and will change it with your approval.

This is wikipedia! Just change it. I agree, anyway. --MichaelTinkler

Using the otherwise unknown form "Achae" over "Achaeans" is just plain silly. Reverting. -- llywrch 05:35 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] 18th century Achaeans

"Achaeans" is not the name given to any archaeologically identifyable culture. The recent info added about "18th century Achaeans" belongs either under "Mycenaean Civilization" or under "Proto-Greeks" (the latter are estimated to have reached Greece between 2500 and 2000 BC). Before the discovery of the "Ahhiyawa" texts, Achaeans was the collective name for the Greeks in Homer. If we identify them with the Ahhiyawa, they become a historical people, the mycenaean Greeks of the 13th century. This article should exclusively deal with (a) the homeric Achaeans and (b) the Ahhiyawa references. We have no way to determine whether the Achaeans already were a separate tribe among the immigrating proto-greeks. There are a series of good articles at Aegean Civilization. We just need to link to these, and History of Mycenaean Greece, no need to summarize that information here. dab 10:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Etymological links for term Danaans?

Is there any source which might link the term Danaans to the Irish Tuatha De Danann or the Danua tribe of Sea Peoples? The names are strikingly similar and the mythology of the Danua/Sea People would certainly fit the Dorian invasion period. User:FeanorStar7

It may also be worth researching if the Dananns can be linked to the Biblical Danites, one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Dryley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.253.71.68 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ahhiyawa

Is it correct to state that Ahhiyawa is a place in Asia Minor? This seems to be saying outright that the Ahhiyawa are not the Achaeans, which strikes me as POV. Clearly they have connections to Asia Minor, but I didn't think it was clear where Ahhiyawa was supposed to be. Anybody know? john k 21:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

This is still disputed, but I think most people place Ahhiyawa on the mainland now. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ahhiyawa and Ogygia

I believe that Ahhiyawans and Achaeans were the same people.

But perhaps, the word Ahhiyawa is derived from the word "Ogygia" (or preciously, Ôgygia or Ωγυγια), the original name of Attica and Boeotia.

Plus, it is possible that the "Aegean sea" may derived from "Ogygia".

The people of Ogygia are Ogyges (i.e. Ogy-ges) and the suffix "-ges" was usual in ante-Greek and proto-Greek tribes.

The root "Ogy-" there is in both words Achae-ans and Ahhi-ya-wa.

So, perhaps Hittites, originally, knew the Achaeans/Ogygians of Athens of Attica and later, the Achaeans of Argos of Peloponnesos.

--IonnKorr 19:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Homeric "Achaea" and other problems

I don't think Homer ever refers to a geographic entity called "Achaea". He certainly doesn't make Argos its capital, nor is Agamemnon's kingdom (which doesn't include Argos) equated with Achaea. The article seems to confuse Homeric political geography with historical Greek political geography; not really a good idea.

This bit of the article seems questionable: "Danaans is the name attributed to the tribe first dominating the Peloponnese and the area near Argos. Achaeans is the name of the tribe that, reinforced by the Aeolians, first dominated Greek territories, centering itself around its capital in Mycenae." Where does this information come from? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious revision needed

This article requires a complete revamp. Firstly, it talks about the words 'Danaans' and 'Argives' in addition to the word 'Achaeans' within the article. This is not suitable considering the title of the article. Their seems to be two options either incorporate this material within a larger article perhaps called something along the line of 'Homeric names for the Greeks' or they should be split off into single articles.

Most of this article is also highly suspect with regards to facts. It presents the Iliad as depicting some sort of unified army of Achaeans, lead by Agamemnon, coming from a unified political entity know n as Achaea. This is a mistake. The Iliad clearly depicts some sort of loose confederation of chieftains all from a single ethnic background. Each chieftain, whilst acknowledging Agamemnon's superiority, is clearly independent. Agamemnon is only a first among equals if you will.

It also calls Argos the original capital of the Achaeans. This is incorrect. The Achaeans never had a capital and was never in any way a unified political force. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.104.32.207 (talk • contribs).

I largely agree with this comment, except that I don't really have a problem with mentioning that Danaans and Argives are other collective names for the Achaeans in Homer. It's probably a good idea to mention that Achaea was a region of the Peloponnese in historical times, and that its residents were called Achaeans. (This region did not include Argos, however.) --Akhilleus (talk) 01:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
In addition it would be useful I think to mention the Achaean League which existed during the Hellenistic period. In fact I wonder if the author(s) of this article have conflated the Hellenistic Achaean League (and indeed the Aetolian League) with the Homeric Achaeans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.104.94.41 (talk • contribs).
The Achaean League has its own article, so we just need to link to that. You might be right about the conflation, which would be a very strange error to make. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)