Talk:AC power plugs and sockets

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AC power plugs and sockets is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 10, 2004.

	Article milestones

Date

Process

Result

July 21, 2004

Featured article candidate

Promoted

August 8, 2004

Peer review

Reviewed

October 6, 2004

Featured article review

Kept

October 23, 2006

Featured article review

Demoted

Current Status: Former featured article

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Archive #1

1 old sections moved to subpages
2 Assessment
3 Discussion of plugs & sockets not presently in use
4 Article title / use of "Domestic"

[edit] old sections moved to subpages

newcomers to this article should still read theese but they were making the talk page unwildly

the subpages should be considered archives if you need to comment on one of those topics do it here and reference the subpage with a link (comments made directly on the subpages are likely to be missed) we can merge the new stuff into the archive page when the discussion goes cold

[edit] Assessment

This article is rated as an A-class article. I agree that it is worth to be nominated to be FAC, if it will be better referenced. However, without additional references it should be downgraded to the B-class. Please help with adding missing references.Beagel (talk) 06:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of plugs & sockets not presently in use

This discussion section contains comments from the previous obsolete & unusual plugs & sockets article, the material from which has been consolidated into its own section of this present article.

[edit] Electric Clock connectors

The article mentions the clock connectors in British public buildings. I've seen this type of connector in some private homes as well (in fact, I used to live in a house that had one - the house was built in 1963, and had aluminium mains wiring!) but I don't know if they were commonplace. 217.155.20.163 17:25, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

can't say i ever remember seeing them in a house. Seen em a lot in public buildings though. Plugwash 18:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Our house had two! My grandma's house has one. I've seen them in other houses and public buildings, but I would think ones in houses would have been removed sooner. So I think they were fairly commonplace. --Ziltro 14:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

We are have recently moved into a house (built in the early 20th century I think) that has three or four of these sockets. The owner of the property said that there were more visible but where they have redecorated they have been hidden. FerdinandFrog 17:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other British Mains Connectors

There was the Wylex mains connector - with a large round centre pin and two flat at the side. I think there were was one around about 3A and another 10A or more. The smaller one would fit into the larger one's socket but not vice versa.

The BBC used to use a lot of Dormond and Smith (D&S) in technical supplies but I don't know if these were ever used in homes. The Live pin was a fuse that unscrewed - very embarrassing if it came loose and stayed in the socket.

In the 1970s my family lived in a flat that initially had these sockets throughout. As a child (11 to 18) I well remember unscrewing the fuse from a plug when it had blown. This was a council flat owned, IIRC, by the GLC but built by the LCC in the 1950s. I remember being told that these plugs were widely used by the council. FerdinandFrog 18:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The D&S type were used in a few public buildings built just after WW2 (presumably before the UK standardised on BS 1363), some surviving in use until at least the 1970s.

Also a Walsall Gauge version of the BS1363 connector with pins rotated through 90°.

I might have a D&S that I can photograph but don't think I have a Wylex. --jmb 22:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems a pointless exercise to go to the trouble of editing in a metric scale into the picture of the D&S sockets and presumably scaling these to be correct when the D&S connector was designed in the days when imperial units were used so all the dimensions will be exact numbers of inches. The socket is exactly 2½ inches, isn't that better than estimating that it is about 6.35 cm? --jmb 18:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- hmm isn't 2½ inches exactly 6.35cm............ Plugwash 02:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's not pointless, it's ensuring Wikipedia (which is global) uses units with which the vast majority of its readers are familiar. If you want to see the original, I linked to it very clearly. However, you should find that the overlaid metric scale is accurate enough for the purpose intended. Brummig 14:15, 21st January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Variants on the BS1363 (UK) standard plug:

There is also a 13 Amp plug with a specially-shaped earth pin, a T in section, that will not plug into a regular 13A socket. It is commonly used in supplied that are fed from an Uninterruptible Power Supply, so that those appliances, and no others, can be connected to the UPS.

A further variant seen is the 13 Amp plug with the earth pin being the round pin from the old 15 Amp plug, presumably to encourage non-compatibility with the other variants.

Had I digital photos of these...... 65.44.124.124 (talk) 12:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

These are Walsall Gauge connectors - should be a photograph of mine of a plug on the page. --jmb (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WYLEX and FITALL connectors

I have found some old plugs and sockets which I have photographed. I was going to post on Wikipedia but trying to make sense of the various copyright clssifications which have changed since I previously posted pictures. Basically I want to retain ownership and copyright and don't want any of my pictures used without permission and also not altered. Is this possible on Wikipedia, if not then I will just delete the pictures and throw the connectors in the bin. --jmb (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Two different Wylex sockets 3KW

One Wylex plug 3KW

FITALL connector - this was a universal plug that could be configured to fit a 5A round pin, 15A round pin and 13A socket.

[edit] Old House Electrical Outlets

Just purchased a house built in 1919. We have 5 different configurations of outlets in the house, but two confuse me... Both of these are circular in shape with only one service in each outlet. To use the analogy of a face, if today's outlets take on the image of open eyes and the ground being a mouth, these confusing outlets look like one has both eyes closed (both horizontal slots) and the other looks like it is winking (one horizontal and one vertical). Both outlets are in the stairwell about 4' above each of the two landings. Were these used for stairwell lighting or something different? Signed, Too young to know! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.98.50 (talk) 19:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Could be 230 V outlets -your IP is in Minnesota. No ground pin on either of these? But why these would be in a stairwell is beyond me. Call a reliable electrician! --Wtshymanski 21:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BC

BC sockets are still in common use, though their use for supplying appliances is obsolete. BC plugs are obsolete. BC plugs & sockets wre in common use for portable appliances until the 1970s in UK. Tabby (talk) 23:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IEC 60906-1

I think the proposed common standard IEC 60906-1 should be displayed more prominently so I have added a heading for it. Biscuittin (talk) 14:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] UK "Wylex"-type plugs

I recall from more than forty years ago that old installations used a 16 amp "Wylex"-type socket with a large round centre-earth pin and smaller rectangular live and neutral almost in a straight line. Does anyone else remember these? Are they still used anywhere? Dbfirs 20:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I found a couple of Wylex sockets and a plug yesterday, I photographed and them to post on Wiki but I changed my mind when I saw how the copyright rules on uploads have changed. The line and neutral are slightly offset and I think there were at least two current ratings with the lower current ones being able to plug into the higher current rated socket but not vice versa. There was also a double plug which had a socket in the back of it so two items could be powered from one wall socket. --jmb (talk) 10:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article title / use of "Domestic"

A pointless, needless edit war (is there any other kind...?) has been going on over the following text:

In the United States, the word domestic is unfamiliar and meaningless. American power terminology does not refer to domestic power or domestic plugs, and make no distinction between home and industrial plug and socket types, as defined in this article. In high-density residences such as an apartment building, both single-phase and three-phase power may be present, and both types of power are also present in purely commercial and industrial environments, so the distinction of domestic power as being for home-use only is vague at best.

Not only is this the unsupported, undocumented, unencyclopædic and wholly POV assumption of one individual editor, it seems also unsupportable. The proponent of the block of text above seems to have assumed that because s/he hasn't encountered the terminology in question, and doesn't like it, that it is not in use. I'm a third-generation American myself, and my experience is opposite. That doesn't necessarily make me right, but it does make an additional reason the text in question isn't appropriate.

If there is some legitimate, supportable feeling that the title of this article is improperly exclusive to one or another English-speaking region, then by all means let's have a discussion here on the talk page and see if a more inclusive title can be devised, and/or any documentable terminology issues addressed appropriately and encyclopædically within the article text. But the edit war needs to end right here, right now. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 04:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I, too, don't really care for the article title since these plugs and sockets are used in commercial, instituitional, and industrial applications, too. A more descriptive title would be "Single-phase AC plugs and sockets" or something of that long-winded ilk. The Merriam Webster dictionary published in Springfield, Massachusetts, says that domestic is a perfectly usable word in American English, at least as spoken in Massachusetts. Oh, and you can't tell at the single-phase wall plug if your power distribution system behind the wall comes from a three phase or a single-phase transformer. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree that the title of this article is a little problematic. We have here a situation similar to the one over at Right- and left-hand traffic (formerly Traffic directionality, formerly Driving on the right or left): there are multiple nomenclature conventions with overlapping, ambiguous, and conflicting terminology. Consider "house current", a term commonly used in North America to refer to single-phase 117v @ 60Hz power wherever it is used, either as a general referent or a specific one to distinguish 117v @ 60Hz from other-voltage, other-phase count, other-frequency power.

That said, the title can't be too awfully bad, for this article earned featured status. So let's discuss the title and see if we can come up with a more suitable one, but it's probably not terribly urgent, so don't let's get too carried away.

The floor is open. Has anyone got ideas for a better title? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see the word "domestic" just simply removed from the article name, since these devices can be used in buildings and environments of any type.

I should mention that I am also responsible for changing the "Domestic AC adapter" section of power supply to just "AC adapter", and for demoting Washing Machine (album) from its old "Washing Machine" article name so it would not conflict with the appliance article on the basis of a single capitalized letter. As with these, I believe this article's name needs to be changed to improve the quality and searchability of the encyclopedia.

DMahalko (talk) 17:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not put something like "non-industrial" to keep everybody happy. --jmb (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

"non-industrial" would be a misnomer since these connectors are used for office, maintenance, and construction equipment in an industrial facility. Large three-phase equipment sometimes use low-voltage/amperage circuits right on the device, for lighting and other purposes, and it is common to find small-sized step-down transformers on a large three-phase device for just this purpose. All that can really be said is that the connectors in this article are universally used everywhere, while the other "industrial" article refers to special plug types that only appear in special high-amperage or two/three-phase applications. DMahalko (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's think this through. The idea of removing the word domestic from the title and referent text does have appeal. Will it cause problems for the structure of this article, or ambiguity with another existing article? Do we consolidate whatever other articles exist on non-domestic plugs and sockets and incorporate them into this article? Or do we give a short paragraph on plugs and sockets covered in other articles, and put a main-link to the other articles? I think the answer is probably "both". We should incorporate Unusual and obsolete plugs and sockets as a section in this article, and we should give short treatment and a main-link to Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets.

It's kind of a shame the concise UK term "mains" isn't used in North America; it would've made a nice, elegant title otherwise. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that this is already the main topic article and those others are subtopics split off from this page. A person searching for the unusual or industrial plugs will arrive at this article first and then branch off to there. DMahalko (talk) 20:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right (by implication) that it's best to hold off on discussing consolidation and main-linking until we settle the title question. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

How about Medium power AC plugs and sockets, with "medium" defined as the 1-2.5 KW range? --agr (talk) 20:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

H'mm. Whose definition of "medium power" is this? I haven't run into the terminology "medium power AC plug" and "medium power AC socket"...who uses it, and where? Whatever title changes we make do need to be supportable. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 20:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to find a compromise here. There doesn't seem to be a universally accepted term. "Domestic," as many have pointed out, is misleading, since commercial/industrial use is just as common. I think we can divide the world into low, medium and high power to keep the articles manageable, as long as we make our basis clear. --agr (talk) 21:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't support this proposal, because it amounts to prescriptive fabrication of an article title. Our job as encyclopædists is not to prescribe categorisation and nomenclature, but rather to describe the world as it is — including terminology and nomenclature. Your division into low, medium, and high power with explicit basis makes logical sense, and might be well suited to a technical manual, but Wikipedia is not a technical manual.

So far, in my opinion the best proposal has us simply removing the word "domestic" to arrive at the title AC power plugs and sockets. As long as we give brief treatment to industrial and multiphase plugs and sockets and insert Main article: Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets, I think this'll deal with the real and perceived problems caused by "domestic" without introducing new ones. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 22:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should use standard terminology where it is available, but where it isn't we must create descriptive titles as best we can. That said, I find your AC power plugs and sockets proposal quite reasonable and support it. --agr (talk) 22:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Trying to think logically... Why is there a split? Because the article would be too large without it and in reality there is, sort of, a split. I don't like the titles though. Can I suggest something along the lines of "Common" vs. "Heavy-Duty"? This article wants to almost be a list of different standards of plugs & sockets commonly in use around the world. What a tourist would like to know. Anything more than basic details of each type of connector should have its own page, like the NEMA, BS 1363 and BS 546 pages. Any similar plug/sockets could have a brief mention, but nothing more. (eg. Australian 15 A plug/sockets often used for air-conditioners) "Common AC electrical plugs and sockets"? Ziltro (talk) 01:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

"Common" and "Heavy-duty"" are subject to wide interpretation - common depends on where you sit, and Schuko plugs are quite as uncommon here in Transcona as NEMA 5-15 would be in Berlin. "Single-phase" and "three phase" would be world-wide; at least in North America 60 Amps is the largest you will find in a single-phase plug. --Wtshymanski (talk) 01:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, "common" and "heavy-duty" would be less than suitable, not only because the category names are subjective and nebulous, but also because the word common has a specific meaning within the realm of AC power service. Single-phase and three phase are certainly justifiable from the technical standpoint, and for that reason I could support those terms if consensus developed in that direction, but the former might be more picayune than necessary. For the time being, I like AC power plugs and sockets for this article, and either multiphase AC power plugs and sockets or 3-phase AC power plugs and sockets for the other article. Let's see if we can wrap up this discussion, adjust the article names, and move on to more substantial improvements...any objections or further suggestions? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 16:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The title AC power plugs and sockets is the cleanest solution. The technical differences regarding phases and so forth can be covered in the article text. Since I am one of the instigators of this change I don't feel I should just go ahead and do the article move myself. Better to have someone more neutral about this have the honors. (Go ahead, Scheinwerfermann.) :-) DMahalko (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Consummatum Est!

OK, I've made the move, tidied up the body text to match the new title, and fixed a whackload of double-redirects. I've also incorporated the unusual & obsolete plugs & sockets text & images into this present article (and the related discussions into this present talk page) and created the appropriate redirects. In a little while we can probably archive this present discussion. I would thank you for your confidence in my ability to make these changes, but I am busily donning my Nomex underwear in preparation for whatever flames may come my way from those who dislike the new title! —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)