Talk:Abraham Lincoln and religion

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[edit] Brooklyn woman

Rev. Mr. Willets The Rev. Mr. Willers, of Brooklyn, N.Y., is credited with the following statement concerning Lincoln's reputed conversion. The information it contains was obtained, it is said, from a lady of Mr. Willets's acquaintance who met Lincoln in Washington: "The President, it seemed, had been much impressed with the devotion and earnestness of purpose manifested by the lady, and on one occasion, after she had discharged the object of her visit, he said to her: "Mrs. ----, I have formed a high opinion of your Christian character, and now, as we are alone, I have a mind to ask you to give me, in brief, your idea of what constitutes a true religious experience.' The lady replied at some length, stating that, in her judgment, it consisted of a conviction of one's own sinfulness and weakness, and personal need of a Savior for strength and support; that views of mere doctrine might and would differ, but when one was really brought to feel his need of divine help, and to seek the aid of the Holy Spirit for strength and guidance, it was satisfactory evidence of his having been born again. This was the substance of her reply. When she had concluded, Mr. Lincoln was very thoughtful for a few moments. He at length said, very earnestly, 'If what you have told me is really a correct view of this great subject, I think I can say with sincerity that I hope I am a Christian'" (Anecdotes of Lincoln, pp, 166, 167).

This is hardly a conversion!!! --JimWae 09:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It is worth remebering that folks then & now have remarkable difficulty distinguishing deism from Xty & easily interpret belief in God as belief in Jesus. Gurley never claimed a conversion -- only the possibility of one in the future --- or perhaps only his hope for such a possibility --JimWae 09:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gurley and the Brooklyn Woman

When you write "Gurley never claimed a conversion" you seem to be ignoring Gurley's description of Lincoln in 1863: viz., "his [Lincoln's] heart was changed, and that he loved the Savior."[1]

Whether we're talking about the 19th century, the 20th, the 21st, or the 11th... those words are a clear claim of a conversion. "Love of the Savior" is simply not Deism in any generation.

The reference to the Brooklyn Woman is found at the following location--

J.A. Reed, "The Later Life and Religious Sentiments of Abraham Lincoln," Scribner's Monthly; Jul 1873; VOL. VI., No. 3.; pg. 340, citing Francis Bicknell Carpenter, Six Months in the White House.

Here is the whole paragraph:

Mr. [Francis Bicknell] Carpenter, author of Six Months in the White House, whose intimacy with Mr. Lincoln gives importance to his testimony, says that "he believed Mr. Lincoln to be a sincere Christian," and among other proofs of it gives another well-authenticated admission (made by Mr. Lincoln to an estimable lady of Brooklyn, laboring in the Christian Commission) of a change of heart, and of his intention at some suitable opportunity to make a profession of religion.

If you wish to read the original claim made by Carpenter, the book is available online for a small fee: http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/135539-ebook.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hilltoppers (talk • contribs) 09:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

  • If it is "well-authenticated", perhaps there is a name or an original source? --JimWae 18:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Rev. Mr. Willets, of Brooklyn, gave me an account of a conversation with Mr. Lincoln, on the part of a lady of his acquaintance, connected with the "Christian Commission," who in the pros- ecution of her duties had several interviews with him. The President, it seemed, had been much impressed with the devotion and earnestness of purpose manifested by the lady, and on one occa- sion, after she had discharged the object of her visit, he said to her : " Mrs. , I have formed a high opinion of your Christian character, and now, as we are alone, I have a mind to ask you to give me, in brief, your idea of what constitutes a true religious experience." The lady replied at some length, stating that, in her judgment, it consisted of a conviction of one's own sinfulness and weak- ness, and personal need of the Saviour for strength and support ; that views of mere doctrine might and would differ, but when one was really brought to feel his need of Divine help, and to seek the aid of the Holy Spirit for strength and guidance, it was satisfactory evidence of his having been born again. This was the substance of her reply. When she had concluded, Mr. Lincoln was very thought- ful for a few moments. He at length said, very earnestly, " If what you have told me is really a correct view of this great subject, I think I can say with sincerity, that I hope I am a Christian. I had lived," he continued, " until my boy Willie died, without realizing fully these things. That blow overwhelmed me. It showed me my weak- ness as I had never felt it before, and if I can take what you have stated as a test, I think I can safely say that I know something of that change of which you speak ; and I will further add, that it has been my intention for some time, at a suitable opportu- nity, to make a public religious profession."


[edit] Lincoln's reply upon presentation of a Bible

According to http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=lincoln;rgn=div1;view=text;idno=lincoln7;node=lincoln7%3A1184;cc=lincoln - Lincoln did not WRITE a reply - this is one newspaper's account of what he said - other papers reporting somewhat differently --JimWae 04:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=lincoln;cc=lincoln;type=simple;rgn=div1;q1=September%207%2C%201864;view=text;subview=detail;sort=occur;idno=lincoln7;node=lincoln7%3A1184

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/faithquotes.htm

http://www.thelincolnlog.org/search.php?dd=7&mm=0&yyyy=1864

http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/lincoln/month.php?yyyy=1864&mm=9

http://www.2thinkforums.org/phorum3/read.php?f=1&i=10810&t=10796&v=f


September 7, 1864

This occasion would seem fitting for a lengthy response to the address which you have just made. I would make one, if prepared; but I am not. I would promise to respond in writing, had not experience taught me that business will not allow me to do so. I can only now say, as I have often before said, it has always been a sentiment with me that all mankind should be free. So far as able, within my sphere, I have always acted as I believed to be right and just; and I have done all I could for the good of mankind generally. In letters and documents sent from this office I have expressed myself better than I now can. In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man.

All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it. To you I return my most sincere thanks for the very elegant copy of the great Book of God which you present.


Annotation

[1] Washington Daily Morning Chronicle, September 8, 1864. Reports in the New York Tribune and Baltimore Sun are less complete. On July 6, 1864, R. Stockett Mathews of Baltimore wrote Lincoln asking him to name the day when he could receive the committee representing the loyal colored men of Baltimore who wished to present him with a Bible. No reply seems to have been made. On August 26, James W. Tyson wrote Lincoln further, and on August 31, Mathews wrote again: ``I have the honour of requesting you to refer to the letter which was addressed to you by myself at the instance of a Committee of Colored Men of this City, and to beg that you will give me an answer to it, at your earliest convenience. I have taken it for granted that your Excellency's multifarious and harassing engagements since July 7th ult. have caused you to overlook the fact, that the colored people are quite as eager to present to you the very handsome expression of their gratitude which they have prepared---as they were to get it up---and I also venture to suggest . . . that its early presentation will be productive of some good in a public sense---independently of the profound gratification which these grateful people will feel in knowing that their superb Bible is at last in the hands for which it was designed. (DLC-RTL).

The Bible, now in the Fisk University Library, Nashville, Tennessee, is inscribed


``To Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, the Friend of Universal Freedom, from the Loyal Colored People of Baltimore, as a token of respect and Gratitude. Baltimore, 4th July 1864. The Chronicle account of the presentation is as follows:

---

``Yesterday afternoon a Bible was presented, on behalf of the loyal colored residents of Baltimore, by Revs. A. W. Wayman, S. W. Chase, and W. H. Brown, and Mr. William H. Francis, to President Lincoln. The members of the committee were introduced by Mr. S. Mathews, of Maryland, and individually welcomed by the President. This ceremony having been concluded, Rev. S. W. Chase addressed the President as follows:

`` `MR. PRESIDENT: The loyal colored people of Baltimore have entrusted us with authority to present this Bible as a testimonial of their appreciation of your humane conduct towards the people of our race. While all others of this nation are offering their tribute of respect to you, we cannot omit suitable manifestation of ours. Since our incorporation into the American family we have been true and loyal, and we are now ready to aid in defending the country, to be armed and trained in military matters, in order to assist in protecting and defending the star-spangled banner.

`` `Towards you, sir, our hearts will ever be warm with gratitude. We come to present to you this copy of the Holy Scriptures, as a token of respect for your active participation in furtherance of the cause of the emancipation of our race. This great event will be a matter of history. Hereafter, when our children shall ask what mean these tokens, they will be told of your worthy deeds, and will rise up and call you blessed.

`` `The loyal colored people of this country everywhere will remember you at the Throne of Divine Grace. May the King Eternal, an all-wise. Providence protect and keep you, and when you pass from this world to that of eternity, may you be borne to the bosom of your Saviour and your God.'

---

There is some doubt regarding whether Lincoln's reply appeared in newspapers. The original newspapers might only have carried the last part (between the ---s) until about two months later, a version of his remarks on the occasion referred to, made its appearance. --JimWae 06:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why doubt?

On what grounds do you doubt that the reply was in the Washington Daily Morning Chronicle on September 8, 1864?? Have you gone back to the microfilm and discovered it not to be there?? The prima facie evidence is that it is there. I don't think Dr. Basler (editor of Lincoln's Collected Works) would have fabricated the report. Is that your claim? If you are going to attack the scholarship of Lincoln's Collected Works, you really need to have some evidence. Until then, the citation to the Sept. 8, 1864 Washington Daily Morning Chronicle is, in fact, a legitimate primary source citation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hilltoppers (talk • contribs) 16:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

  • The Chronicle account of the presentation is as follows...(see above) There is nothing in "what follows" concerning Lincoln's words. The supposed reply did not start appearing until some 2 months later - and from an source unknown --JimWae 03:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I am not claiming he fabricated it. It was in circulation & he did not suspect it, so he included it. See the text above, which specifies just what was in that paper that day - also see http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_5.html#4.3 --JimWae 04:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • And I have a source for that paper that day - see above - it does not mention a single word by Lincoln. You have misidentified the paper & mistakenly said he actually wrote it --JimWae 08:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The Lincoln quote was, in fact, in the newspaper on September 8, 1864; you can either check the microfilm yourself, or see the available compelling evidence that is available through the Library of Congress online at: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mal:@field(DOCID+@lit(d3610100))

  • Alexander M Jenkins was an Illinois newspaperman/businessman, one-time Illinois lieutenant governor, who died in 1864. From what I can tell we still do not clearly have a source for the name of the paper (several have been said to be the source of the fullest quote) & do not know exactly what was in the first article. Several quotes & reprints omit some of the sentences. Yes, I would like to see any facsimile of the article. Most of the links above became defunct just minutes after I first found them (a couple of weeks ago)--JimWae 02:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is a reference to the quote in question from a book with an 1895 copyright: Abraham Lincoln's Speeches. Seems to me that some are just perturbed that there is evidence of a public display of religious conviction by such a prominent U.S. president. The word "reportedly," as contained in the wiki article, reflects this and immediately caught my eye as being out of place. How many other Wikipedia articles with similar quotes get this kind of treatment? 68.60.64.237 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "He began to contemplate spiritual matters in a new and profound light"

There is now a source for withdrawing into himself - but claiming access to what he contemplated requires much more than other person's opinion - a diary entry or something. Further, "contemplating spiritual matters" was something he had done "profoundly" most of his life --JimWae 04:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "reevaluate God's will regarding what needed to be done to achieve victory"

Should Wikipedia be attributing thoughts to people based on what others surmise? Had he not re-evaluated what needed to be done to achieve victory before? Did Lincoln decide that God wanted him to do something else first, and then he would let the war end? --JimWae 05:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Yes, I do love Jesus"

Another entry in the memory book The Lincoln Memorial Album—Immortelles attributed to An Illinois clergyman (unnamed; most entries in the memory book are attributed by name) reads

"When I left Springfield I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ. Yes, I do love Jesus."[28]
  • http://www.rootsweb.com/~iabenton/history/1878/deaf_dumb.htm
  • http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mal:@field(DOCID+@lit(d3943600))
    • Talbot was the principal of a school in Iowa City
    • his letter mentions reports in the religious press - but still no specific source in any press is established at that date - though it is clear that "something must have appeared somwewhere"
    • the part of the article that deals with this mentions proofs - it proves there must have been an earlier source, but still that source has not been found - so saying Barton search was not thorough enough is unfair - the source STILL has not been found
    • There is no record of any reply by Lincoln to Talbot

Proposed replacement for the 3 paragraphs that presently follow in the article:

This has been portrayed to have been Lincoln's "reply" to this unnamed Illinois clergyman when asked if he loved Jesus. The earliest source found to the story in which Lincoln is alleged to have said to an unnamed Illinois minister, "I do love Jesus" is in a sermon preached in the Baptist Church of Oshkosh, Wisconsin, April 19, 1865, by Rev. W.W. Whitcomb, which was published in the Oshkosh Northwestern, April 21, 1865"[ref]. A December 21, 1864 letter to Lincoln from a Mr. Benjamin Talbot of Iowa does make reference to an appearance in the religious press of Lincoln saying "I do love Jesus".[ref] There is no known reply to this letter, nor does any other quoted text other than "do love Jesus" appear in it; also unclear is if this is the same occasion and addressed to an Illinois clergyman.

--JimWae (talk) 05:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputing the 1834 "Essay"

The quotation of Mentor Graham, disputing the existence of a Paine-style essay by Lincoln containing a critique of Christianity, is provided within the reference cited in the article. It can be found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=SY6rNGoNaI0C&printsec=titlepage#PPA32,M1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilltoppers (talk • contribs) 13:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • The text is not available there. I have reinserted the request for a quote & a name--JimWae (talk) 17:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The quote of Mentor Graham is RIGHT THERE on page 32 of the citation given (http://books.google.com/books?id=SY6rNGoNaI0C&printsec=titlepage#PPA32,M1); I'm not going to be able to come to your house and read it for you. Lincoln lived in Graham's house at the time the alleged "essay" was written. He is at least as reputable a source as Herndon (the secondary source for the "Paine-like essay" claim). Herndon was just a boy of 15 when the alleged "essay" was written.

  • Also not available is the Freeport Weekly Journal, December 7, 1864. Do you at least have a source that says it appears there?--JimWae (talk) 17:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently you are quite unfamiliar with the conventions and procedures of academic scholarship. The citation Freeport Weekly Journal, December 7, 1864, is a legitimate scholarly citation. The newspaper still exists in microfilm in various libraries across the country.

You seem to want to raise the level of scholarly citation to something like, "it's not a legitimate source unless I get to see a PDF scan of the source." But that's just not the way scholarship works. You need to read a few scholarly books. Citations are given in the footnotes. If you wish to contest the legitimacy of the citation, the burden is upon you to provide a PDF scan which shows that the writer was being dishonest with his citation. You can't nullify a citation simply by claiming that the writer didn't provide you with a photocopy of every one of his sources.

The "I do love Jesus" quotation is found in the December 7, 1864 newspaper. I've seen it. It's in my research notes. I'm not going to run back to the microfilm and create a PDF for you. The same can be said about Lincoln's address about the Bible which is found in the Washington Daily Morning Chronicle on September 7, 1864. It's right there.

What's most telling about your complaints in this regard is that you almost entirely rely on tertiary sources for your claims (example, you prove that Lincoln wrote an Paine-like essay by citing Michael Nelson, who cites William Herndon, who cites Lincoln). This is not even a secondary source citation--it's tertiary. And then you turn around and have the audacity to criticize PRIMARY sources.

Are you willing to live up to the very bar you wish to set: to provide a PDF of a primary source for every claim you make? If so, most of the material that contradicts Lincoln's Christianity on this site would have to be discarded. Most of it is based on the highly biased writing of the likes of Remsburg and Boller. It's this simple: Barton and Boller were wrong when they claimed there was no source for the "I do love Jesus" quote prior to Lincoln's death. Just plain wrong. The Talbot letter is proof enough, even if you don't care to go to the archives to see the newspaper. (see http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mal:@field(DOCID+@lit(d3943600))

Do you think that the Library of Congress is in some kind of conspiracy to fabricate original sources to this effect?

Man, take a graduate class or two on historiography, research, and historical method. Proper academic citations have been provided for you. You can't erase them just because you don't like them. If you want to contest them, go down to your local university, call up the microfilm, make your own PDF, and post it to this page to prove that my citation is bogus. Until then, I have provided a proper, scholarly, and academic citation.