Talk:Abkhazian Soviet Socialist Republic

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[edit] Georgian view

I understand that some Georgian sources question or even deny the existence of the Abkhazian SSR. I welcome any person with more information (read: sources) to add this to the article.sephia karta 22:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official language

Look here at the extracts from the 1921 constitution of Abkhazia (chapter 2, article 6). For those unfamiliar with Russian I can translate it:

6. The language of the state institutions (государственных учреждений) is Russian. Note. All the peoples that inhabit Abkhazia have the right to freely develop and use their native languages both in their ethnic-cultural (национально-культурных - hard to translate) and in state institutions.

6. Языком государственных учреждений ССР Абхазии признается язык русский. Примечание: Всем населяющим ССР Абхазия национальностям обеспечивается право свободного развития и употребления родного языка как в своих национально-культурных, так и общегосударственных учреждениях.

So, strictly speaking, Russian was the only official language, however other languages have (per Constitution) basically the same rights. Alaexis 07:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, ok. It's probabky best then to readd Abkhaz (and possibly Georgian), possibly with a footnote to explain the matter. sephia karta 15:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Alaexis 15:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Does this cite quoted in the article actually exist? http://www.rrc.ge/law/declar_1921_05_21_e.htm?lawid=112&lng_3=en - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 03:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Proposed move to Abkhazian Soviet Socialist Republic

It seems that given that the formal name for this (albeit short-lived) nation was "Abkhazian Soviet Socialist Republic", the soviet prefix abbreviation (-"SSR") shouldn't be in the full article name. Therefore, I propose to move the article to its full form, Abkhazian Soviet Socialist Republic. We wouldn't have an article about North Korea titled "DPRK", would we? --Micahbrwn (talk) 09:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not part of USSR directly

Abkhazia joined to Georgian SSR in december of 1921. Georgia was part of Transcaucasian SFSR.

USSR was founded in 1922 (Russian SFSR + Ukrainian SSR + Byelorussian SSR + Transcaucasian SFSR).
Read this:

ДОГОВОР ОБ ОБРАЗОВАНИИ СОЮЗА СОВЕТСКИХ СОЦИАЛИСТИЧЕСКИХ РЕСПУБЛИК
Российская Социалистическая Федеративная Советская Республика (РСФСР/Russian SFSR), Украинская Социалистическая Советская Республика (УССР), Белорусская Социалистическая Советская Республика (БССР/Byelorussian SSR) и Закавказская Социалистическая Федеративная Советская Республика (ЗСФСР - Transcaucasian SFSR: Советская Социалистическая Республика Азербайджан (Azerbaijan SSR), Советская Социалистическая Республика Грузия (Georgian SSR) и Советская Социалистическая Республика Армения (Armenian SSR)) объединяются в одно союзное государство — Союз Советских Социалистических Республик.

--89.31.88.212 (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you argue that Abkhazia had the status of 'SSR' for some time? This justifies its inclusion in the SSR template. Alæxis¿question? 14:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Abkhazia was SSR as a part of Georgian SSR (which was a part of Transcaucasian SFSR) (1921). (before USSR was founded in 1922) --89.31.88.212 (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Saying that Abkhazian SSR was part of Georgian SSR in 1921-1931 is an oversimplification. But it's irrelevant to this issue. As I've already said if Abkhazia had the status of 'SSR' for some time this should be mentioned in the template. Alæxis¿question? 07:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
SSR not means "republic of USSR", that means kommunist power in the country. If you dont believe me, go to library and learn. --89.31.88.212 (talk) 14:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Конституция Грузии от 1927 г. статья 83: "Социалистическая Советская республика Абхазия в силу особого договора входит в Социалистическую Советскую республику Грузия и через нее в ЗСФСР".

(my translation) The constitution of Georgia 1927. Article 83: "Socialist Soviet republic Abkhazia is a part of Socialist Soviet republic Georgia and through it is a part of Transcaucasian SFSR".

I've modified the template to make the status of Abkhazian SSR more clear. Alæxis¿question? 16:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
“ 3. ССР Абхазия, объединившись на основе особого союзного договора с ССР Грузией, через нее входит в Закавказскую Социалистическую Федеративную Советскую Республику и в составе последней - в Союз Советских Социалистических Республик. ”

This is the quote from the 1925 Constitution of Abkhazia. It's rather interesting that "объединившись на основе особого союзного договора" ("[Abkhazia and Georgia are] united on the ground of the special treaty") was replaced by "в силу особого договора входит"("[Abkhazia is] part of Georgia on the ground of the special treaty") in the 1927 Constitution of Georgia. Alæxis¿question? 16:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It is no less interesting to note the 1924 constitution of the USSR (en) (ru) refers to Abkhazia as an autonomous republic. This should be mentioned in the article, no?
Btw, why are the Bukhara People's Soviet Republic and the Khorezm SSR (1920-24) omitted in this template? AFAIK, both these republics were associated with the Russian SFSR along the lines of Georgia-Abkhazia. Correct me if I am wrong. --KoberTalk 16:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know... I've read both articles you've given links to but I cannot say whether this situation is identical to Georgia-Abkhazia one or not. Thus I wouldn't oppose the inclusion of these republics but won't do it myself. Alæxis¿question? 17:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Besides, in case of Abkhazia it's written in the Constitution that it is part of USSR. I don't know whether the Central Asian republics you've mentioned considered themselves part of USSR de jure. Alæxis¿question? 17:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Если "не знаешь", не надо редактировать статьи. Тебе пять раз написали ссылки на законы. Абхазия стала частью Грузинской ССР с 1922 года, через неё (тобишь НЕ непосредственно) вошла в Закавказскую СФСР, а позже ЗСФСР подписала закон об образовании СССР (вместе с РСФСР, БССР и УССР). Не надо пересочинять историю и впихивать в шаблон все административные единицы СССР. --89.31.88.212 (talk) 14:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks. Alæxis¿question? 15:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no personal attacks (read again).--89.31.88.212 (talk) 16:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] USSR republics template

The question is whether the Abkhazian SSR should be mentioned in this template and whether this template should be present in this article. This version of the template was supposed to make the status of Abkhazian SSR clear. Alæxis¿question? 15:11, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

  • There's never going to be a good answer to this question. As the article states, the Abkhazian SSR's status was ambiguous, so there's no honest way to present it without going into the nuances. The problem is that nav boxes like Template:Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union are absolutely the wrong place to attempt to convey nuance - they are very much suited for "fast and dirty" information. My suggestion would be to leave it out of the nav box, but make sure that users who click on Georgian SSR or Transcaucasian SFSR have rapid access to high-level reference and links to the Abkhazian article. An alternative would be to turn the nav box into much more of a complete laundry list of SSRs, oblasts, regions, autonomous republics, etc, etc. You lose the narrow focus on full SSRs, but avoid ambiguity like this article raises. As always, this is merely IMHO. Ipoellet (talk) 05:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Perhaps the problem could be solved by including it at the end, and by giving it an asterisked explanatory footnote. The Transhumanist 02:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Why you wanna include? It's never been a republic of USSR directly (read the Constitution of USSR). It was a part (autonomus republic) of Georgian USSR and Georgia was a part of Transcaucasian SFSR before including in USSR directly. --Pianist 20:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not quite. It wasn't an autonomous republic (see both Georgian and Abkhazian constitutions of that time) and it wasn't just a part of Georgian SSR although it was part of Transcaucasian SFSR "via" Georgian SSR. Imho giving the list of the components of the TSFSR in parentheses ("Georgian SSR with Abkhazian SSR, Armenian SSR and Azerbaijan SSR") makes the status of these entities clear to the reader. I think that the parts of TSFSR should be mentioned in the template because unlike another short-lived republic it wasn't demoted to ASSR but split into three constituent republics of the USSR. Alæxis¿question? 09:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You have told "It wasn't an autonomous republic". Look at this:

From Constitution of USSR 1923 (!): Автономные республики Аджарии и Абхазии и автономная область Юго-Осетия посылают в Совет Национальностей по одному представителю.

The autonomous Republics of Adjaria, and Abkhasia and the autonomous region of Osetia each send a representative to the Soviet of Nationalities

--Pianist 18:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no constitution of the USSR in 1923! Besides that constitution is not accurate in the sense that it does not actually list the individual constituencies of the republics, like the latter version of the constitution: e.g. the 1936 edition article 25: В Грузинской Советской Социалистической Республике состоят: Абхазская АССР, Аджарская АССР, Юго-Осетинская автономная область. --Kuban Cossack 18:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
That is bill of Constitution (that should shows that Abkhazia always was autonomous Republic).

From Constitution of USSR 1924: The autonomous Republics of Adjaria, and Abkhasia and the autonomous region of Osetia, Nagornyi-Karabakh and Nakhichevanskaia each send a representative to the Soviet of Nationalities.

Constitution "is not accurate" - ROFL. Constitution is main law of USSR. --Pianist 16:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] user:Pianist ru

Recently created user:Pianist ru (either an SPA or a sockpuppet) has been going through and deleting only Abkhazia from articles and templates without discussion or rationale. I have reverted all such edits as POV vandalism until a valid rationale is put forth by Pianist ru. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 16:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Read constitution of USSR of 1924 a lot of times, then delete my contributions. --Pianist 23:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Раз неплохо знаешь русский: читай конституцию, додик, а потом уже откатывай. Есть это и в проекте 1923 года и в конечной редакции конституции СССР. --Pianist 23:18, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
That is not a valid rationale-you must post it in your own words, explaining your own reasoning. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 23:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Посмотри наверх, лол. --Pianist 23:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Look at the top of page... --Pianist 04:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)