Talk:A6M Zero

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[edit] Recent Korean zeros

In paragraph three: "Recently the North Korean Air Force bought 16 Zeros to be used for ground attack." True or vandalism? Buyo 01:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Idiocy.

Only a moron would credit the idea.Mark Lincoln 00:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First US shoot-down

From the article, "The first American pilot known to be shot down by a Zero was Lt. George Whiteman on December 7, 1941." The first American. So what? -- Taku

So what?

For the next six months Americans blamed their inferior airplanes for their losses.

The truth was that the Japanese pilots had more experience.Mark Lincoln 00:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Folding wings

I removed the recent change by an anon that the folding wings were necessary because JN policy was to store planes below decks. The reason for the removal was that this, I think, should be self evident; the need to take planes below decks is common to almost all aircraft carriers since that is where maintenance is performed. —Morven 03:46, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

I have often inspected a Zero operated by the CAF.

Where did the wings fold?Mark Lincoln 00:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

At the end. In fact in Model 32 of the Reisen or Zero-Sen these were eliminated, giving this variant its square wingtips compared with the other variants. Dirk P Broer (talk) 23:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

American pilots often misused, or were confused by, US code names, but "Tojo" was the code for the Japanese Army Airforce's "Ki-44" fighter "Shoki," a totally different aircraft--although both were low-winged monoplanes with radial engines. Incidentally, the JAAF's "Oscar" (Ki-43 Hayabusa) often was misidentified as a "Zero," more understandably than with the Shoki, since the Ki-43 was very similar in silhouette and flight characteristics (albeit less well-armed.) Sometimes the Ki-43 is referred to in US pilot biographies as an "Army Zero," a non sequiter as the Zero was a naval aircraft. For example, USMC ace "Pappy" Boyington refers to "Army" Zeroes and "Navy" Zeroes in his biography, and asserts that the "Tojo" is a "souped-up version of the Zero." As long as "Pappy" was able to shoot them down in droves, it clearly didn't matter if he got the model numbers right or not!! I think the non-viability of the Zero as a combat aircraft in the latter part of WW2 has been overstated, given that when Saburo Sakai returned to combat in 1945 in a Zero he scored very effectively against Hellcats and Mustangs, despite being blind in one eye. Even as late as 1945, too, there were still a lot of allied pilots flying P-40's and F4f Wildcats. And even the later aircraft could usually not dogfight with a Zero or an Oscar. IMHO it wasn't until the F8F Bearcat was introduced that the US had a fighter that TRULY was superior in most ways to the Zero, and the Bearcat didn't see combat in WW2. In the hands of a skilled pilot, the Zero was still a menace even in 1945. It still surpassed, for example, the FM-2 Wildcat and the P40N. [John P. Strang Tue. 6:48 pm PST July 20]

You're presuming the objective is dogfight. Boelke & Chennault both demo, the idea is to kill him before he knows he's been fired on, not get in a fight with him. For that, F4Us, P-38s, & P-47s were perfect: hi speed & heavy firepower, as well as the ability to climb or dive away at will. The only reason "the Zero was still a menace" was because only masters were left alive.
On a separate ish, let me note, first A6M ace, 13 Sept 1940, was F/Sgt Yamashita Koshiro. Trekphiler 03:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
You're both right. The Zeke was chosen for Kamikaze attacks as it had the best chance of getting through. It could still outmaneuver the Hellcat. And the way for Corsairs and Hellcats to fight it was not to dogfight, but use the strengths of their planes to get the drop on the Zeke. Kablammo 00:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IMHO it wasn't until the F8F Bearcat was introduced that the US had a fighter that TRULY was superior in most ways to the Zero, "

There are plenty of dead Japanese pilots who might disagree.

The amazing agile motions of the Zero were deliberately reduced as airspeed increased. It was a structural trade-off, as was the decision to sacrifice armor and self-sealing tanks were given up for range.

I am not disparaging Hirikoshi's work. I am pointing out that once American pilots achieved the same number of combat hours as Japanese they were more than able to use the supposedly 'inferior" F4F to advantage. By the time the F6F and F4U were available the situation was reversed.

An American pilot was far more likely to achieve some 300 hours than a Japanese.Mark Lincoln 00:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Felix C-- I deleted a picture and then found out that you had just added it. It strongly resembles another image on the site (which I think you added as well) and didn't see the need for two similar images. Kablammo 00:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged Chinese Zeros

Anonymous user 71.146.141.240 has added a substantial paragraph on the alleged manufacture and use of the Zero by Chinese Nationalist and Communist forces in the late 1940s. I don't claim to be an expert, but I've never once heard or seen any such thing from any other source. I suspect that the entire paragraph is deliberate misinformation and should be deleted until external sources are cited. In particular, the initial claim that the Chinese built 300,000 such Zeros (which would make it the most manufactured aircraft in history by a factor of 10 over its closest rival Ilyushin_Il-2!) casts doubt on anything written by this contributor. I've deleted all such content. -- Paul Richter 05:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese Zeros

The deleted paragraph concerning the production of A6Ms in China and their large-scale combat use in Thailand and China was completely absurd; there was no truth in it at all. According to the RTAF Museum in Bangkok, the Thais did use a few Zeros postwar but they vanished within a few years as spare parts ran out. There was no civil war in Thailand of the type described during the post-war years. I suppose it is possible that a few left-behind A6Ms got used by Nationalists and Communists (Janes Fighting Ships lists quite a few ex-Japanese warships surviving until the early 1960s so its possible some old aircraft hung on as well) but the idea that the type actually went into large-scale production is ridiculous. I suspect the author was trolling.

Stuart Slade 16:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Surviving Zeros

Here (http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Chino2004/Sampler/index.html) it says that there is only one surviving Zero with it's original Sakae engine in flyable condition. The others were Pratt & Whitney powered (not original) at this particular show. I think its notable to mention this only surviving Zero. Zchris87v 06:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on the "Chinese" A6M

The bit about the A6M and China re-appeared (or a section thereof) claiming that both the PRC and RoC used their A6Ms until 1956. I deleted it. As far as I know captured Japanese aircraft were used by China immediately postwar but they were replaced by the time China was taken over by the Communists. Other Japanese aircraft were used by the Thais (Ki-27s and Ki-43s) and briefly by the French in Indochina (Ki-43s and E-13As) but they all vanished from service within a few months.

Stuart Slade 12:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

I do not know much about the details of WWII-era technology... As far as I can tell, this article says everything that needs to be said. It has an infobox, it talks about the development of the various variant models, and it has pictures. LordAmeth 16:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hughes H-1

Should it be mentioned that Howard Hughes believed that the Zero was derived from his H-1 Racer?74.121.138.53 15:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hughes thought many things. Got a credible source to cite? - Emt147 Burninate! 22:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The allegation that the Zero was copied from the H-1 has been around ever since the Zero appeared, and is still contentious. I think it should be addressed in the article, though. -- Paul Richter 07:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Jiro Hirokish would - did - have a big laugh at the suggestion that either the H-1 or the Vought 173 was the prototype of the Zero.

It is very revealing of Americans in 1942 that they simply could not admit that 'squint eyed-can copy only' Japanese could design an airplane.Mark Lincoln 00:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Et seq.?

2 things. Since when do Nakajima's A4N & Mitsubishi's A5M belong in the same sequence? And where are contemporary Bf-109, I-16, P-38, & F4U? Trekphiler 08:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The designation sequence is that applied by the user (in this case the Imperial Navy), not the manufacturer. Similarly, Army aircraft follow the "Ki-" sequence where the Nakajima Ki-44 is followed by the Kawasaki Ki-45.
I think "Comparable aircraft" should mean more than just being contemporary; in this case it should be limited to single-engined light fighters with roughly the same performance. So the P-38 and much more powerful F4U wouldn't be included, nor the weaker I-16. As for those already listed, I don't think the XP-77, which is in a class of its own, is comparable either. -- Paul Richter 09:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Divergence of trajectories

Recent addition of the image showing divergence of 20mm shells vs 7.7mm bullets begs the question: is there a Wiki article that contains discussion about the general Japanese fighter pilot practice of shooting off a stream of 7.7mm rounds to check range before opening up with the 20mm for the kill? Several US pilots have written that this practice often allowed for avoidance of the 20mm entirely, as they were warned ahead of time by the 7.7mm tracers or by hearing some of the 7.7mm rounds hit home.

The divergence image doesn't show the slower speed of the 20mm round. With a slower speed and different trajectory, it's hard to believe that Japanese pilots were taught to use the smaller round as a measurement tool prior to the big round--the two rounds had nearly nothing in common. Binksternet 22:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I drew the image, to answer your question I don't think I've seen anything on Wikipedia about the practice of ranging with the 7.7s. Understanding that some pilots might have, Saburo Sakai said they never did as standard procedure.

Interviewer: Did you bracket the enemy first with MG, then fire your 20mm cannon when he was in range?
Saburo Sakai: No, no no that was never true.

I was thinking of animating bullets to illustrate differences in velocity between the two. Fast or slow though, hitting a target with guns that don't converge is bound to be tricky unless the range is extremely close (which has it's own perils). I wonder if P-38 pilots did anything similar with their .50cal/12.7mm and 20mm combo? Anynobody 00:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I wonder how Sakai couldn't have been aware of the observed Japanese practice over Rabaul and environs... At any rate, there were many different skill levels of pilots in the theater and there were regional variations that stemmed from influential local instruction. P-38 pilots were no different: some registered hits with 50 cal before firing the 20 mm, some didn't. Others fired all their guns all the time. There was even a group of Pacific P-38 jockeys that decided to get rid of ALL of their tracer rounds after concluding that fast Japanese reactions to nearby tracer fire were cheating them out of aerial victories. The tactic worked for them, their group included some of the top scorers. Binksternet 01:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
One reason why P-38 pilots could be more casual about which ammo they used is that either choice was pretty damn effective. Not true for the Zeke. Binksternet 01:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
As you said each pilot has their own methods and tricks; I think Sakai meant that they didn't train pilots to do it and he didn't either. (I think I remember another interview with him where he expressed annoyance at the differing calibers and their ballistic tendencies.)
I haven't heard what you mention about P-38 pilots nixing tracers from their ammo, though have read some about Dick Bong and Thomas McGuire (not only the top P-38 scorers but of all American aviators still to this day.) Describing how they used the Lightning's speed for hit and run attacks. Anynobody 02:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
If I may... the difference in speed between the 7.7mm and 20mm bursts shows clearly on the image: it is the divergence itself. Regardless of their masses, all rounds would fall at the same rate (neglecting air friction which is probably low on the vertical axis, given the speed of the fall). So if the 20mm rounds are lower than the 7.7mm at the left of the image, it must be because they have had more time to fall, which entails that they take longer to cross to the left of the image. Rama (talk) 08:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Swedish FFVS J 22 a comparible aircraft

Introduced in 1943 to the swedish air force the FFVS J 22 seems to be in the same class as the Zero.