User talk:98.202.92.50

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[edit] Question

I think I may have an idea why you insist upon referring to Mr. Herbert as Utah's Secretary of State; but, rather than guess, I decided to ask you. Why, despite the fact that his own website lists him only as the Lieutenant Governor, do you style him the Secretary of State? Respectfully yours, Unschool (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I do recognize that Utah's history—insofar as the evolution of the office of Lieutenant Gov is concerned——is rather unique. But I still do not come to the same conclusion as you do. Please help me to understand your thinking. Unschool (talk) 05:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If you do not engage me in a discussion on this matter, I will feel free to revert Gary Herbert's article to what I believe to be factually correct. If this is as important to you as it appears, please discuss the issue. Unschool (talk) 03:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding LG Herbert

I refer to LG Herbert as Utah's Secretary of State because in the Utah Code, it says very clearly that all references to the Lieutenant Governor or Secretary of State are in fact, the same person. As the Chief Elections Officer, as well as the overseer of all notaries public and municipal certifications for incorporation, the LG of Utah acts as the SOS. In addition, Gov. Huntsman has asked LG Herbert to oversee the Utah Department of Commerce, which brings the entire level of service to Utahns in line with every Secretary of State in the country.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thank you for your response. I suspected this was your reasoning. However, my understanding is different. Does not this section in the code date from the establishment of the office of Lt. Gov.? My understanding is that the intent was simply to make sure that all previous statuatory and constitutional references to the office of Secretary of State be now recognized as covered by the new office of Lt. Governor. In other words, whatever functions were previously served by the SOS are now served by the Lt. Governor. But this does not imply that this person now has two titles. Your thoughts? Unschool (talk) 13:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] True, enough

You are correct that it does not entitle a person to dual "titles" - yet the duties that encumber one are those of BOTH the SOS and that of the LG of Utah. LG Herbert is a current member of NASS and NLGA. As it sits, many Secretaries of State in the US lack the election oversight, the municipal codification, the notary public oversight and the "2nd in command" responsibilities, all combined. Do some more research.

The chief error that I perceive in your logic is that you appear to believe that there is a standard definition of the duties of either a Lt. Governor or a Secretary of State, and that, since Utah's LG has duties from both, he is both. But in fact, there is no standard definied list of duties, for either office. Each state is entitled to provide whatever duties to the respective office as they see fit (or not have said offices, for that matter). In some states, the LG is the official presiding officer of the Senate, in others, not. In many states the SOS is the chief elections officer, in others, the SOS has nothing whatsoever to do with the elections process. In some states without an LG the SOS is next in line to the governorship, in others, not. In some states the LG sits as an ex officio member of the cabinet, in others not. If your argument is that Governor Herbert (yes, of course, your protocol sensors were better attuned than mine; my compliments) possesses more comprehensive duties than any other Lt. Governor in the United States, then you've got a great case to make. But that's entirely irrelevant as to what his title is. He is not the Secretary of State, he is the Lieutenant Governor. The only "dual titling" that I know of—and this may not exist any longer—was that in some states, primarily Southern, if I recall, the LG would also have the title "President of the Senate", much as the Vice President of the United States is styled "Mr. President" when serving in his capacity as presiding officer of the US Senate. But this is a constitutionally prescribe pair of titles.
It would be interesting to see an article on the relative powers of the various LGs of the US, with a table showing at the top the vast duties of Utah's LG all the way down to the complete impotence of Illinois' LG. Of course, explanitory paragraphs would show that, just as in states lacking an LG, the SOS is often imbued with more power, so too are LGs potentially more impowered in the absence of other constituional officers, such as an SOS (though this pattern is clearly not perfect). Unschool (talk) 04:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If you can show me that another Lt. Gov or Sec. of State encompasses all of these duties (HI, AK's LG's don't administer what UT's does.....) I will submit to you.

Because you cannot, I will not. The LG of Utah (by the way, the Lt. Governor of EVERY state is often referred to as "governor" - check your protocol) stands ALONE in terms of his duties and responsibilities.

Why is this seemingly so foreign to someone who seems to know so much about Utah's Code?

[edit] Response

By the way, I realize that my manners as a Wikipedian are proving horrendous. This is a discussion on the content of an article; it needs to be public. Would you prefer that this discussion take place at Lieutenant Governor of Utah or Gary R. Herbert? Unschool (talk) 04:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Neither, really - But I send my apologies if I offended you. It was not my intent - but constant badgering probably led to my animosity. Either way - all is good on my front.
I'm going to go ahead and move this discussion to Gary Herbert. Unschool (talk) 00:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] OKAY

You argue:

"If your argument is that Governor Herbert (yes, of course, your protocol sensors were better attuned than mine; my compliments) possesses more comprehensive duties than any other Lt. Governor in the United States, then you've got a great case to make. But that's entirely irrelevant as to what his title is. He is not the Secretary of State, he is the Lieutenant Governor."

Fine - LG Herbert is NOT a "Secretary of State," as you define the position. Please explain, then, why LG Herbert presented his "Leave Your Print" campaign, as a NASS member, to an audience of "secretaries of state" in 2007 and received a standing-ovation? Is the LG of Utah a Schmuck? Does he have some "street-cred" with other SoS's? Or is he, in YOUR opinion, a total waste?

Actually, given your comments - I'm honored that LG Herbert is an LG and not an SOS.