User talk:71.198.54.213

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Hi, I notice that you've repeatedly added text along the lines of "Chau Tien Pale Ale is the USA first Asian born beer since 1985. It uses both English and American Malts. Pale Malts predominantly." to Pale ale. In what way, specifically, is Anderson Valley Chau Tien sufficiently notable, that is, exemplifies a particular style of pale ale, to be listed as an exemplar for the style, and can you back this up with sources -- say, a magazine article or review? --Stlemur 19:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The following is a rebuttal to Mr. Stlemur [Disclaimer: I am still trying to figure out Wikipedia; and English is a second language so excuse the grammar/typos].

Re: Pale Ale. I got a message from Stlemur who seems like a devoted volunteer towards the Wikipedia Project Beer. This is a huge undertaking and I hope Stlemur realizes that the world of beer, and pale ale in particular, is much bigger than he has experienced so far [by his own admission that he's new to beer, see Cooper's Pale Ale]. I commend him for his efforts, but I feel he needs to show an appreciation for the many thousands of un-named brands/beer styles that he is unfamiliar with, and not to quickly delete them or judged some unknown/unheard of "brands of beer/pale ale" based on "popularity-Vs-greatness." A scientific person as Stlemur, who claims to be an astrophysics should set aside economic bias, and should be open minded to the undiscovered possibilities. I have put down: Chau Tien Pale Ale is the First Asian beer brewed in the USA since 1985. Originally born at Sierra Nevada Brewery and now being brewed at Anderson Valley Brewery [8], Boonville, California. This brew is unique because it's the only known hybrid/fusion of Pale Ale style using ingredients from America, Europe, and Asia.

In terms of "exemplary status" it seems that Stlemur recognizes Sierra Nevada is popular and clearly accepted it as "exemplary" in his book. On this note, Chau Tien Pale Ale was originally one of Sierra Nevada brewery's pale ale, but now it's a spinoff. Other than the politics of business, Chau Tien is an interesting hybrid, a fusion of East meets West in terms of ingredients and style. Seldomly, has anyone in the USA or the world, have came upon an Asian Style Pale Ale, or should I say, An Asian American Style Pale Ale. Chau Tien Pale Ale uses west coast USA hops, such as Cascade, Centennial, and Liberty along with two types of English Caramel malts; American Two Row pale malt (predominantly) and Munich malt, and a secret Asian herb/spice in the brew. Moreover, Anderson Valley Brewery is recognizes as an "exemplary brewer," who brews the Boont Amber Style [8] (considered a medium pale ale) by Wikipedia. Anderson Valley is the current brewer of Chau Tien Pale Ale.

For more "exemplary examples" (e.g. news articles, praises, quotes, etc,) please visit the website www.paleale.com and pay particular attention to the Beer History link. There you'll find the facts and historical comments. Perhaps, Chau Tien Pale Ale needs to be in a special category called: Asian Pale Ale or Asian American Pale Ale. Chau Tien is the pioneer of this new style/segment. On a different note, but as an example, if you look at the auto industry today, there was a time when people identified cars by their country of origin. So, what's an American car? when the parts are coming from different parts of the world and build/assembled in various countries. Therefore, ask yourself, does Pale Ale mutually exclusive to the western countries? See: http://www.paleale.com/beer_history.html and http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/193/36279

Most Asian beers are of a lager style because their origins came from Germany's influence or European influence (e.g. Tsingtao beer came from a German town in China and when the Germans left, the brewery was left at the colony; Kirin and Sapporo had German's influence and Japan allied with Germany during World War 2; French built the "33" brewery in Vietnam when France colonized that country back in the 1800's). Chau Tien Pale Ale has its roots at Sierra Nevada and it's a hybrid American [Asian] Pale Ale. I think if Stlemur seeks the opinions of those who are truly experts (20-30+ years in the beer industry), he would see that Chau Tien Pale Ale deserves the respect and should be included in the Pale Ale main section when people searched for "pale ale."

I don't deny that beer is a worldwide phenomenon, and I'm not saying categorically that good beer can come only from Europe and America. As I see it, though, the Pale ale article is not a place to list every single page ale that exists..."Asian pale ale" isn't a substyle that anyone, as far as I know, recognizes as major right now; maybe in the future, but that doesn't matter to Wikipedia now.
My specific argument about not including Chau Tien in the page ale article is: if you were to get a panel of beer experts together, and tell them to create a short list of pale ales to show to someone entirely unfamiliar with the style what a pale ale is, Chau Tien wouldn't be on it. I see that you've cited BeerAdvocate; I look at that and say that Orval has 649 reviews, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale has http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/140/276 almost 1100], Chau Tien less than ten. It's just not in the public mind as an example of pale ale -- remember, we're talking about worldwide consideration of the style.
I don't dislike Anderson Valley or anything; I've had some of their beer, and what I've had has been well-done. If Chau Tien is something that you have a hand in producing or promoting, then it's Wikipedia policy that you need to be careful about how you approach your writing about it, but information on it could well go in the Anderson Valley Brewery article. I just don't think it fits in where you're trying to put it. --Stlemur 00:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Another rebuttal to Mr. Stlemur:

Well, as I see it, your point of view is looking at merits based on macrovision and popularity. No doubt, Sierra Nevada is popular but it wasn't so 15-20 years ago, since Chau Tien Pale Ale started with Sierra Nevada 23 years ago (1985), it should not be left out. There are actually more than ten reviews of Chau Tien Pale Ale by sources other than Beer Advocate (e.g. Rate Beer; Beer Reviews; Beer Me!, and quite a number of well respected/known publications like the San Francisco Chronicles; Sacramento Bee, San Jose Mercury News, etc). Again, it was a product of Sierra Nevada, which you need to keep that in mind (since you had no trouble listing other Sierra's extension products in a dedicated page of the company with its logo...looking more like a commercial page). Wikipedia to me is a form of infomercial, since you yourself have reiterated and mirror a lot of the contents/feel of the popular breweries websites contents (e.g. Sierra Nevada and others). Most common folks could research and grasp the popular and large macro enterprises, but I think a more challenging thing to do and a courage thing to do is to be the one who discovers those that aren't on the popular radar, and then get to be the one (you) to tell others about it. If you discover a star, you could get your name on it like "Stlemur Star," but if you just repeat other stars that are already founded by others, well that's not so special.

I don't agree that Asian Pale Ale is a substyle, but rather a style of its own, although new. Popularity and size are for economist and for commercialization purposes. So, seeing your repeated posture on size/popularity is making me feel that you're discriminating. My "argument" with you here is, while Wikipedia talks about being "neutral" etc, it should also keeps a check of its own by writing about object(s) that are both micro and macro in nature. With more people in Asia (billions) than any where on earth, at sometimes in the near future, I think the landscape of Asian Pale Ale will be noticeable. So, if you want to be noticed for pointing something out like, "Chau Tien Pale Ale is the first Asian style Pale Ale, born at Sierra Nevada since 1985" under the Example of Pale Ale or reference it would be to your credit some years from now. Unless Wikipedia has a "capacity" issue, it should make all the efforts to list as many as there are out there--info/internet as the level playing field--for everybody and could be "searched" under its engine. If you take pride in the notion of "fair for all" and the intent of the internet is a fair game, then you should not allow your own prejudice to be selective based on size.

I'd be happy to make a donation to Wikipedia and its my hope that the staff at Wikipedia will continue its excellent work and the cause is admirable. (71.198.54.213 16:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC))