User talk:71.137.200.151

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Update: The fake "Coats of Arms of Krolewiec" in center (previously used in Wikipedia Kaliningrad) was made-up by a Wikipedia user and after lengthy discussions was removed by same.

Koenigsberg, Kaliningrad Coats of Arms

Altstadt.gif

Coat of Arms of Altstadt (Old town) of Königsberg, 1286

Coat of Arms of Królewiec, Polish name for Königsberg

Modern coat of arms

Note: The center 'Coat of Arms of Królewiec' is made up by a Wikipedia-user. It is not official or actually used coat of arms.

Please refrain from adding nonsense to Wikipedia, as you did to Kaliningrad. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. —Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The nonsence is in the 'coat of arms made up by a wikipedia user
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Krolewiecherb.PNG—

Update: The fake "Coats of Arms of Krolewiec" in center was made-up by a Wikipedia user and was removed by same.

The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.137.200.151 (talk • contribs) .

Might very well be, I don't know. The point is, if you believe the image is hoax, you can:
  1. raise the issue on the article's talk page;
  2. raise it on the image's talk page;
  3. contact the person who uploaded the image directly.
What you don't do is slapping a warning right in the body of the article.
Feel free to contact me if anything is still unclear. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the term "made up" as in "invented". As I explain in the next paragraph the image was recreated not originated by me. Now I would like to see some explanations from the anonymous user as far as why he thinks the image is "nonsense" and never "official or actually used". Space Cadet 10:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
P.S. We have always accepted self made maps, including historical ones, dealing with delicate matters of borders between states and place names, and we don't call them "art" or "original research".

Contents

[edit] Coat of Arms of Królewiec

I actually found this coat of arms about 3 years ago, while surfing the net. The find was completely accidental, since, if I remember correctly, the page was not even in any way related to Poland, Germany or Prussia. The original was however not in a condition to be published - small, blurred and with poorly visible details. I have reconstructed it as well as I could, using bigger elements, that were in my posession. About 2 years ago I stumbled upon a similar image, but with a different style of the White Eagle and with no city names. I strongly doubt that this would be a hoax. Space Cadet 22:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Space Cadet, thank you for answering, even though I had not even contacted you. You write, that you saw something similar to what you made up, which is supposed to be a 'coat of arms' of the city named Koenigsberg, Königsberg, now Kaliningrad, which you labeled with Polish Królewiec. I admire your artistic talent, but it seems to me that Wikipedia now depicts this made up by you 'coat of arms' as historical 'fact. I would say, unless you can post a concrete historical version to back this up, it should be removed.

(I am in no position to answer lengthy -endless conversations and I will not answer the extremely agressive user Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky)

You, of course, don't have to answer me, but I would much appreciate if you could explain how and when exactly I was extremely agressive. Thanks.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I was not clear enough the first time around. Let me try again. 3 years ago I found an image looking exactly the same as the one I recreated: the White Eagle of Lesser Poland (which was the official symbol of Poland) holding the three shields with coats of arms of Knipawa, Stare Miasto and Lipnik, respectively. The image also bore all the four Polish names. Now, 2 years ago I found an image that was similar to the one I uploaded to Wiki. It had all the previously mentioned elements, except the White Eagle looked a tad more like the Greater Poland Eagle. I really don't see a reason why we should suspect a hoax, scam or machination. After all, Królewiec was a Polish city and all Polish cities (even those inhabited by non-Polish ethnic majority) had their Polish names and coats of arms. This is a historical fact. Space Cadet 23:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to search for and provide a link to an online site or else a published document which references the design? That would be better than all this "one said, the other said". You might also be able to enlist the aid of the members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology to resolve issues about this device. Askari Mark | Talk 15:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red herring

Since pre-1945 Königsberg was never Polish and never inhabited by Poles, and Kaliningrad is not part of or claimed by modern Poland, the inclusion of a "Polish coat of arms" for the city seems a red herring. Based on the user's history on German/Polish naming issues, it seems a manifestation of a highly POV (read: ultra-nationalist) mentality. As everyone knows, Königsberg was named Königsberg from 1255 to 1946, and was known as "Królewiec" only among Poles.

I'm aware that that Ducal Prussia was enfeoffed to the Polish Crown prior to the Treaty of Wehlau in 1657, but that did not make it part of Poland, nor was it inhabited or ruled by Poles.

BTW, I also find it misleading to label all the non-German names for Königsberg as "historical names." To the casual English reader, "historical" implies that at some point in the past the city actually called itself by one or more of those names, which Königsberg never did. These names should be identified as "names in foreign languages," or "foreign-language alternative names."

Sca 17:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Since 1466 (unofficially 1454) Królewiec was a part of Poland, whether it fits your POV or not. Not only was it inhabited by Poles, had a Polish garrison, but during the reign of Władysław IV Vasa it was directly ruled by the Crown Chancellor Jerzy Ossoliński. It's very sad to see that in lack of valid historical names you just go into complete denial and resort to calling me highly offensive names. For your information I'm not a skinhead, but a liberal, I love minorities and my blood is very mixed. So why don't you save your unsubstantiated and highly inappropriate insults for your friends and leave me and other objective and neutral editors alone? Space Cadet 21:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

That last sentence was very rude. And what for ? --Lysytalk 21:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, sure! And him calling me an ultra nationalist was not? Space Cadet 21:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it was offensive but not rude but even if it was, you are responsible for what *you* write, primarily. --Lysytalk 21:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

All right, all right, maybe I freaked out a bit, but he really infuriated me. Space Cadet 22:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there any historical evidence for the issuance of a Polish coat of arms for Königsberg during that 15th-century Polish regnency? If so, there should be a description of the arms, even if there remains no illustration. If not, then the illustrated one would most likely be spurious. Askari Mark | Talk 23:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It makes sense to include to CoA in the history section, but if it is controversial, I see no reason to have it in infobox/lead.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good news!

I have done some major research on the subject and it turned out that the three coats of arms of Altstadt, Kneiphoff, and Löbenicht were united and assembled into one coat of arms only in 1764 by the Prussian king. So there is no way that in the time of Polish rule, the coat of arms would look like the one I uploaded. Apparently the image I recreated was somebody's well meant idea of how the coat of arms should have looked like. Don't believe everything you find on the internet, especially if it's something you woud like to see! Space Cadet 09:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outcome

Well, in any event, we have gotten rid of the historically spurious item in question. Thank you for that.
Regarding "Królewiec" having been "a part of Poland," I understand the political pretext for this claim but find it unconvincing, and I simply don't believe Königsberg, as the city then was named, ever was inhabitated primarily or even significantly by Poles. In all my reading about Prussia, which is considerable, I've never seen anything to substantiate or even suggest it.
Of course it's possible and even likely that some Poles lived in Königsberg at some time, and I realize that southern East Prussia (Masuria) was home to many people of Polish ethnicity. But everything I've ever seen indicates that Königsberg always was essentially German ethnically and culturally — until, of course, dear old Uncle Joe got his mitts on it.
I sincerely don't believe my phraseology above was insulting, but I'm glad to know (from a message on my talk page) that the user in question is "not a nationalist" and "despises nationalists, racists, fascists, bigots, etc.," as I do — and I hope he is enjoying złota jesień, as I am trying to despite difficult personal circumstances.
Sca 17:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure you'll agree that in this part of Europe the ethnic composition of a town told little about the country it was in. Thinking in ethnic terms of countries of Central/Eastern Europe, especially when dealing with pre-19th century times is a common mistake. Poland was not a nation-state until 1945. --Lysytalk 20:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying, but I think it's too broad a generalization and more applicable to places that had historic ethnic mixtures, such as Vilnius / Wilno or Strasbourg / Straßburg. And as I've tried to explain before, in the West, particularly in the U.S., people do think in ethnic terms, about Europe anyway. Königsberg a) always was ethnically German, and b) never was de jure part of Poland, i.e. Poland proper. Although the (German) dukes of Prussia were obliged to render homage to the Polish monach for 150 years or so, this was a result of the defeat of the Teutonic Order and its aftermath, not a symptom of Königsberg's ethnicity, which remained German until 1945-46, when Königsberg as such ceased to exist.
Thus, for the purposes of English speakers, Königsberg was a German city all its life.
Sca 21:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Nationalism For those interested in the general topic of Polish nationalism, I offer this link to a recent English-language article from Spiegel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,444037,00.html

Sca 23:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fake "Coats of Arms of Krolewiec"

- Update - Wikipedia Kaliningrad

Coats of Arms

Altstadt.gif

Coat of Arms of Altstadt (Old town) of Königsberg, 1286

Coat of Arms of Królewiec, Polish name for Königsberg

Modern coat of arms

Note: The center 'Coat of Arms of Królewiec' is made up by a Wikipedia-user. It is not official or actually used coat of arms.

The fake "Coats of Arms of Krolewiec" in center was made-up by a Wikipedia user and was removed by same. Labbas 23 October 2006

Conversation about Fake made up Wikipedia-User's Królewiec Coats of Arms-Kaliningrad Koenigsberg

Space Cadet, you claim to 'have spent sleepless nights to conduct research on the image in question....' and that you created the fake 'Królewiec Coat of Arms' based on an image from a doubtful webpage (which, when asked to produce it, was none-existing)

'Oh, you poor dear! you sound sooo convincing! what a tear-jerking performance !'

I want to spare you and me and a whole lot of other people from spending endless sleepless nights or days of constantly having to correct your and a number of other like-minded POV'ers 'accidentally or purpously' ridiculous claims. Please from now on, check- before you submit it to wikipedia.

To see how long it actually takes, I checked internet search engine google. Within minutes I had all kind of answers, including the site, that shows the real coat of arms and that Kneiphof was united with Königsberg in 1724. Königsberg Wappen, coat of arms, Królewiec herb etc etc.

Too bad you did not conduct that research prior to accusing me of stuff. Remember I conducted the research myself, upon analyzing the results I came to conclusion that the image was fake and I removed the image from the article. It was also me on my own initiative who went to the Polish Wiki and deleted the image over there. You? You were just standing there making sarcastic comments, calling me names etc. Pretty easy and convenient. Space Cadet 11:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I knew the minute I saw this ' Coats of Arms of Królewiec', that it is a fake. I did not accuse you of stuff, I merely stated a fact : Note: The center 'Coat of Arms of Królewiec' is made up by a Wikipedia-user. It is not official or actually used coat of arms.

For stating a fact I got this:

Please refrain from adding nonsense to Wikipedia, as you did to Kaliningrad. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. —Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

and I answered that very crude, rude Vandalism- Yo? person , again very politely:

The nonsence is in the 'coat of arms made up by a wikipedia user
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Krolewiecherb.PNG—

So , no , I did not make sarcastic comments and I did not call you names etc. You on the other hand made a bunch of 'explanations' and attested to the validity of the 'Królewiec Coat of Arms'. When someone asked you to post proof, that is when you finally checked (investigated) and you did come up with the conclusion, that it has to be 'incorrect', fake or ... I like that word, that sca used above, which I actually had to look up in the dictionary. You did get your praise for (finally) admitting to the incorrectness (after a number of tries of convincing the world of the truthfullness of the 'Królewiec Coat of Arms'). Labbas 3 November 2006

Did you like what Sca said because he called me an ultra-nationalist? And can you explain how did you know the image was fake "the minute you saw it"? I mean - nobody else interested in the subject and with substantial knowledge about it did, so what special qualifications or abilities do you have to make that judgement without any research or investigation? Is it the same kind of perception that allowed you to know that Braniewo was never Polish before 1945, "the minute you saw" Braniewo (Braunsberg), Poland? Space Cadet 04:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Nope, I was referring to this wording used by Sca :Well, in any event, we have gotten rid of the historically spurious item in question. Thank you for that.

How did I know the Krolewiec Coats of Arms was a made-up fake? Basic knowledge of the history of the region. Braunsberg, the same. Labbas 4 Nov 2006

Hard to believe that someone with only basic knowledge could "know" something better than numerous experts on the subject, who participated in creation and revisions of Kaliningrad article. What I think happened is you had a gut feeling, based on which you vandalized the page without doing any research, investigation, that would back up your hunch. Then after research conducted by me, you ridicule my efforts and say that you "knew" all the way. How, is my question, but you fail to answer that. Judging by your knowledge of Braniewo (Braunsberg) you DO have basic knowledge not of history but of popular stereotypes and myths of the region. Space Cadet 00:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Nope - again. I knew, that the Krolewiec Coats of Arms- made up by you- is 'historically spurious'. I do not vandalize, ever. Unfortunately a large number of wikipedia user do, which I am very much against. I wanted people to know, that this is not real and I posted this very mild message Note: The center 'Coat of Arms of Królewiec' is made up by a Wikipedia-user. It is not official or actually used coat of arms.

You could have simply removed this 'spurious' (illegitimate, bastard, false,counterfit, not genuine, fake counterfit, fraudulent, false) made up crest. You did not have to continue making up more fake stories along the way. But the explanation for doing that comes from you personally (to Baldhur, Mirko). Anyway enough of that. Have a good day. Labbas 4 November 2006

Same search also produced a very interesting conversation By Space Cadet to Wikipedia:Baldhur:

Hi, Mirko! (Is this a popular German name? Sounds very Slavonic, Czech, Serbian or maybe Lusatian). I did my best in convincing Taw. When I was talking about Frankfurt, of course I didn't mean the one in Hessen but the other one, You know, on the that river with two names. From Rhine to Ural? From Dniestr to Laba (Elbe) would be more like it. And please understand the Polish point of view: the German irredentists - Heimatvertriebene, Jung Landsmannschafte Ostpreussen and other "Teutonic Knights" want to claim from 50 to 80% of current Polish lands. If Poles just stick to reasonable historical arguments and desperately try to convince the world about their rights to the Recovered Lands, then between the lines they acknowledge that the issue is a subject to discussion. It's not! That's why current Polish strategy is to come up with equally absurd and ridiculous claims from their part. "You want Silesia - well, we want Lusatia (Lautzen/Luzice) with the old Polish cities of Misnia (Meissen), Budziszyn (Bautzen) and Chociebuz (Cottbus)! You want Pomerania - well, we want Pomorze Zaodrzanskie (Vorpommern) with the old Polish cities of Wologoszcz (Wolgast) and Strzalowo (Strelitz). You write about Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg - well it's Kaliningrad/Krolewiec for You, You pickelhaube wearing, kulturkampf Preussener, You!" Me, I don't take any part in it actively. But I see that change as something better than the previuos way of reasoning. I can send You some funny posters and bumper stickers, and we can both laugh about them. Take care, Mirko! Space Cadet 14:59 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

As they used to say on Laugh-In (TV show) Verrry interesssting !!!

Only if you quote it out of context it is. Space Cadet 11:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jonas Bretkūnas; stop making disruptive edits!

I see you are constantly deforming sentences, which has references. About this I will talk a bit later. Now about your “edits” towards his name. I directly provided the reference about his name from the beginning, sadly in is not in English, but you could always ask for the explanation before making dubious edits. Let me translate a bit of reference. The author of this publication is illustrious Zigmas Zinkevicius. I will write a bit about him that you did not question his competence. He is a professor, vice dean of department of History and Philology, was and head of Lithuanian language, Baltic Philology departments. Member of The Royal Academy of Letters, History and Antiquities (Sweden), member of Royal Academy of Sciences (Norway) and member of several more international institutions. Also winner of Herder prize. Wrote 26 books, including 6 periodical books towards history of Lithuanian language. Wrote ore when 500 scientific articles. One of the best knows historian-linguist in Baltic’s. And lets read that he has to say bout Bretkunas surname: (translated by me; original reference provided in article) “Bretkunas surname variant in German language is Bretke. Lithuanians use name with suffix –unas. This form of name, Lithuanians used from old times exclusively in Eastern part of Lithuania, while Bretkunas lived in the Western region, so in this case his Lithuanian name should be Bretkaitis. But suffix –unas was used by Prussians at that time very widely. So in this case Bretkunas origin is undoubtedly Prussian.” As you see Bretkunas name usage is historical accurate. And let me ask – do you se Postile picture? Probably not, because if you see on it the name of Bretkunas; is quite clearly written (let me to rewrite it): Per Jana Bretkuna, Lietuwos Plebona K.araliaucziuie Prusuos (1591). Let me translate the message – by Jonas Bretkunas (nominative), Lithuanian pastor in Kraliaucius, Prussia. Second point; Jonas Bretkunas formulation is most popular in English sources, which is important too.

Now about references, which you trying to deform; provided sentences of his native languages states, that these languages (native!!!!!) were Prussian and Lithuanian. Provided references states that Lithuanian language was used in state chancellery. So do not disrupt well reference sentences. M.K. 09:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For M.K ,stop inserting your sandbox tries here, such as these: Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you may want to do. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. M.K. 14:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop deleting valid info

Stop it now! And learn difference between Lithuania as such and Lithuanian oky? M.K. 15:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

M.K - cut it out (if you do not understand this, it means M.Kstop your destructive behavior! your aggressiveness is also noticed by a number of others, such as: [1]

I gave references for everything I added at Johannes Bretke (in Lithuanian Jonas Bretkunas) and they were checked by Dr Dan, before you went on a rampage and changed it all to Jonas Bretkunas again. I am familiar with the first Lithuanian books and the names etc, but thank you for the lengthy explanations again. Fact is, studying languages and translating the bible or sermons do not make the person Lithuanian or whatever. Johannes Bretke lived all his life in German language administered eastern Prussia (under margraves of Brandenburg-dukes of Prussia) and in Germany (HRE, HHR, SRI Holy Roman Empire of German Nation).

By the way , you did not seem to know the location, when you 'translated' to 'Lithuanian pastor in K(a)raliaucius, Prussia'. For your information, that means Koenigsberg, Prussia. Let me also make you aware, that 'Lithuanian pastor' refers to him giving sermons also in Lithuanian language, not that he is a Lithuanian.

Sadly, your behavior is almost as bad, as another extremely POV group, of which one (see reference above and Fake Coats of Arms) even admitted to the real motives: If Poles just stick to reasonable historical arguments and desperately try to convince the world about their rights to the Recovered Lands, then between the lines they acknowledge that the issue is a subject to discussion. It's not! That's why current Polish strategy is to come up with equally absurd and ridiculous claims from their part. "You want Silesia - well, we want Lusatia..

Good one, if you like to make comments here do it. And thanks for watching mine contribs. Another note try no to delete == == these because it is very handy to other to edit, in this case you don’t need to browse to the top. Now about Karaliaucius, your presumption above is wrong – till present day Lithuanians call this city as Karaliaucius (or more exact Karaliaučius) , not The King`s Mountain and not Kaliningrad. I hoped that to educated person as you, it would not make no problem, but seems I was wrong. Second note; from there did you get it that I consider him a Lithuanian? In other hand it would not be a full lie historically as CoA case. I could say it in your words living in n German language administered eastern Prussia do not make him a German. I provided you my motives why such name I applied, which are linguistic accounts, usage of name in English sources, his own writings.
Another note – mine aggressiveness or not; has nothing to do with. Above I conducted standard procedures, which are encouraged in wikipedia. If mine some words were somehow offensive I am sorry for this (but I would like to know which specifically). Your early contributions on article are considerate as disruptive behavior. Why? Removing of valid references and information, duplicating article etc. M.K. 19:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

More information on Johannes Bretke and Bretke-Bibel project http://www.uni-greifswald.de/~baltist/comp-bretke.htm This project was started in 1998 in time for the 400-Year Anniversary of Johannes Bretke's death in 1602. During the first translations of the bible into Lithuanian language he several times had trouble with the correct Lithuanian word endings, that is because he was not a native speaker.

Lots more info on google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=johannes+bretke&btnG=Search

wrong about endings, it is linguistically future and depending on dialects, due to "dropping" endings is not regarded that person is pure (or not) native speaker. M.K. 20:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC) BTW, why you not using the headlines? It is very usefully plus this symbol in beginning  : pull the text from border> Bretkunas translation is not the first translation of Bible in LT lang. M.K. 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


in EN it is a "bit" less [2]

I would love to chat endlessly with you, but I need to go. Here is more info for you to read.

Lots more info on google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=johannes+bretke&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jonas+bretkunas&btnG=Google+Search

Koenigsberg (today Kaliningrad) in Lithuanian language Karaliaučius- is the translation of Koenigsberg to Lithuanian language. It does not use the Baltic Old Prussian word 'Kunigas' for Koenig (engl. king), but instead uses a word for king- derived from Karl (der Grosse Charlemagne), Frankish German emperor. Several Slavic countries adopted versions of 'Karl' for king. That in Lithuanian language this is the case also is perhaps due to the fact, that the Lithuanian Jogaila married the 'king' of Poland.

About Koenig (other versions is credible as well) direct translation Kunigas was applied to first Lithuanian rulers. i perfectly aware of primary meaning of kunigas as king (I wrote about it personally). M.K. 20:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contact

Here is my e-mail address: spacecadet123@inorbit.com. Could you send me your's? I got something for you, that I want to send over off the Wiki. I will only use your address once. Space Cadet 11:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)