Talk:5.45x39mm

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[edit] Picture

The picture shows the civilian version of that round. The military version has an additional hard metal (tungsten?) insert in place of most of the lead. This penetrator is quite effective against light armor and especially body armor. When this bullet became available on European black markets during the soviet troop widthdrawal in the nineties it created quite some headaches and fear among local law enforcement. Even armored cars in use by most politicians at that time weren't able to reliably stop these rounds at close range.

This article suffers from a nearly complete lack of sources. I can't even find a reference to support the idea the round was inspired by the American experience in Vietnam, as opposed to the American adoption of the round. Bueller? Bueller?--Thatnewguy 12:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Some info here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6708147 My attempts to find a full-text version have miserably failed. --Thatnewguy 12:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone help me out here?

In this page it claims that the balistics study done by Fackler shows "that the AK-74, even at close range, did no more damage than a handgun round". I looked at the PDF file of the report and saw no indication of this, and at this website showing wound illistrations from Facklers findings, it looks to me like the 5.45x39 round creates a distinctively superior wound compared to popular handgun rounds such as the 9x19 Parabellum round and .45 ACP round. Of course I hardly know what I'm talking about, so can anyone help me out here? --Skyler Streng 22:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Terminal ballistics is the subject of quite a bit of debate, because it's impossible to do controlled studies on the subject (well, maybe at someplace a concentration camp or Unit 731, but if that happened, the data was lost or covered up). The big issue of debate is permanent cavity vs. temporary cavity.
A fast projectile will make a big "splash" when it hits, displacing lots of tissue, even if it's a very small diameter projectile. It's this "splash" that creates a temporary cavity. If this temporary cavity does significant damage, then a big temporary cavity can be a good thing, if it's deep enough and encompasses a vital area. If the temporary cavity does not do significant damage, then it's of no concern, and all that matters is the permanant cavity.
Since military rounds are required to not "expand or flatten in the body", according to the Hauge convention, the standard expanding soft point or hollow point bullet used to limit penetration and increase permanant cavity size is not allowed. Modern rifle bullets (starting in the late 1800's early 1900's) use a sharply pointed bullet to provide superior external ballistics, allowing better energy retention at long range with a lightweight, flat shooting, low recoil bullet (compared to, say, the .45-70 Government). This also means the center of mass is well behind the center of pressre, so the bullets are very unstable, and want to fly back first; they are held straight by the spin, but the will tumble when disturbed. Upon impact, the bullets tend to flip, bend, and fragment to various degrees depending upon the velocity upon impact. The 5.45x39mm test you point to shows just tumbling, with a max penetration of about 55 cm--this is 21 inches, or a bit over the FBI's target of 18 inches for handgun bullets. Even sideways, the wound cavity is pretty small, but the curve gives it more total area than a straight shot. So based on permanent cavity alone, the 5.45x39mm is about as effective as a 9mm FMJ (the 9mm penetration beyond 18-20 inches isn't of use, as it's likely through the body at that point). Of course, the 5.45x39mm has far better range and armor penetration.
If you do think the temporary cavity is important, then the rifle rounds start to have a much greater advantage. Actually simulating or measuring this effect is very problematic, however.
I'm a bit sleep deprived right now, and trying to track down a geometry problem in some image processing code, so I'm going to sign off on this for the time being. Ping me in a couple of days, after I get this release out, and I'll be happy to discuss it a bit more with you, hopefully in a more coherent manner. scot 02:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I could understand it being the same or inferior if it was being compared to a Desert Eagle .50 pistol,but not a normal 9mm. Dudtz 5/21/06 12:23 PM EST

It has quite weak stopping power, but still more than 9 mm pistol, and is significantly more lethal. To illustrate, in average each tenth 9mm pistol round means a death, while 5.45 injury/death ratio, according to Israel data, is about 3.5. CP/M

[edit] No picture

The picture is gone now.--Ysangkok 18:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality?

I suspect the article was largely written by a 5.56 advocate. It states the 5.45x39 gained a reputation as a "mediocre stopper". This should be properly referenced and/or clearly defined. Since "reputation" is based largely on anecdotal accounts, I submit that it is non-encylopedic information. A cursory web search for this round returns more references to its alleged "poison bullet" performance in Afghanistan than to any accounts of subpar performance, so if anything its reputation seems skewed in the other direction.

If anyone has access to Soviet ballistics data that may prove interesting. They have kept it in front line service for 30+ years for some reason, and I don't think national pride is the only one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.170.119 (talk) 00:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

Someone please revise this. It's obviously making it's own conclusions out of hearsay. Just to add; the shots in the Fackler study was from 3 metres. Fragmenting bullets are known to only do so at certain velocities, and hence ranges (one thing that everyone agrees upon - but it's atleast for me, not fact yet, haven't seen any tests), the 5.56 for example often said to not do so beyond 150 metres or so. The 5.45 is known to yaw more than the 5.56 at extended ranges and atleast, be less dependant on velocity to do so, hence the 5.45 might actually BE a "good stopper", an equal stopper, or even better stopper, than the 5.56 at ranges where it doesen't fragment. Yawing must, reasonably, be better than overpenetration. This is an relevant angle since 150 metres is a realistic, but long range, shot in modern wars. To add - what's a good "stopper" can hardly be deducted from ballistic tests (hence it has nothing to do with the shooting of pigs in the Fackler study but is only hearsay - and here hearsay contradicts hearsay if you do a google search). What i'm basically saying is that there is more to this than that medical article which is the only basis other than rumours or unconfirmed sources to most what the wikiarticle states. And the unconfirmed facts that I blurt out for the sake of shining light on the complexities of this should no more be in the wikiarticle than what stands now, so dont get me wrong.

The study you ignore is scientific, peer-reviewed, and unrefuted. Please provide your own sources before you tag the article to death. The 5.45 is functionally identical to the 5.56 in modern warfare.--Asams10 00:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't tagged anything. And I dont understand what you respond to seeing the article does not put the 5.45 forward as identical to the 5.56, but just the opposite. Fragmenting good (5.56), yawing bad (5.45), and it being important noting that contrary to some beliefs it was not on par with the 5.56 without cites and said to be an "mediocre stopper" - "However, the rigidity of the 5.45mm bullet prevents fragmentation and gave it a reputation for being a mediocre stopper." Both need citing. I dont see anything about stopping power in the sources. All I see is pigs getting shot showing off wounds post mortem. A study with 500 unique anecdotal accounts from actual incidents in warzones with post autopsys - ok, but this? No. Settling with what we got on an topic that can only be as scientific as an enforced, half side-angle crippled preset can be is.. constructive and honest to the actual purpose? Everything about yawing and how it probably isn't as destructive as the cartridge designers first thought, ok. But it being so important to note the 5.56 superiority without cites, no. 90.230.80.22 13:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Fackler's study is not, contrary to the claims of this article, indisputable "proof". His findings and terminal ballistics in general remain heavily debated to this day. Also a problem is that that this article currently seems to be as much about Fackler as about the 5.45x39 cartridge. 71.203.209.0 08:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

If you have sources which say otherwise, let's see them. The article currently cites Fackler as a source, not as indisputable proof. Geoff B 09:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] size comparison

Whats larger, the 5.45x39mm M74 or the 5.56x45mm NATO? 69.76.54.140 (talk) 23:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Read the articles. It's got the dimensions. The Russian round is less powerful.