Talk:1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners article.
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[edit] Title

The title and tone of this article may possibly be POV and unbalanced. Khodavand 02:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

How? Please elaborate. What specifically is false.--Patchouli 12:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
First, only the MKO (Peoples Mujahideen) are called "Monafegheen" by the regime. That label is only for them. Second, it seems to be only about their executions of MKO members, and not people from other groups. Also, the "massacre" in the article title is possibly POV as I already said. Is there a source for the title? Khodavand 23:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
A search engine will yield over 260,000 results. It won't hurt to use it.--Patchouli 01:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with user Khodavand. For example, the article defines the so called 1988 massacre of Iranian prisoners as a "systematic slaughter of thousands of political prisoners across Iran by the Islamic Republic of Iran". Why is the word slaughter used instead of executed? The people that were executed were prisoner. Although their executions may not have been justified, it is for the reader to decide. Furthermore, I would take search engine results with a grain of salt (I can elaborate if necessary). I will change slaughter to execution if there are no objection. Agha Nader 03:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader
Execution is WP:NPOV. I will change it as per discussions here.--Gerash77 22:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bodycount

How many people were executed during this time? GutterMonkey 07:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of POV OR

I got rid of a bunch of POV OR. The "Backgrounds" section was removed because it was a biased, unsourced, & unnecessary section that basically retold the facts from the lead with an anti-IRI spin. The "Aftermath" section appeared to be simply some anti-IRI commentary, sourced to a book that is a collection of passages from Iranian blogs. That is not reliable.

Now, it is just the lead (which has plain information, no spin) and a "Response" section. I believe that a "Background" section can be reintroduced if it is informative, focused, and neutral. However, the lead shall suffice for now. My main deal is to have the "Response" section be expanded with significant, relevant, and reliable responses from notable parties. Please, no blogs or blatantly biased sites. The responses should be written neutrally and receive due weight. I'm thinking of groups like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, national governments, the UN, etc. In general, real groups. The Behnam 07:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

We are Iran has a collection of blogs indeed, but in the case of numbers it was not quoting one. The background section could have used a reword but was complete removal of all that necessary? If you are going to expand it, feel free to revert me but it didn't have a POV tag so unless the info is completle nonsense I don't think you should remove it --Rayis 08:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't remove the numbers; they are still there (in my version), with two 'real' sources to back them up. To be on the safe side the blog-book should not be used. It does not soundly meet reliability requirements. Perhaps a better source can be afforded? As far as the "Backgrounds" section goes, I tried to find something to salvage but, after a good look, found it unacceptable. It was no-value-added, and the fact that it was rather POV-OR & of dubious accuracy left it detracting from the article. The stuff about the crackdown being a response to an MKO attack is the only part worth mentioning, and this is satisfied in the lead. A clear tie to the Iran-Iraq War (such as mention of Mersad) is fine, but a "Background" section is not needed for this; the information could easily be added to the lead without negative consequence. But it isn't even reliably established that this crackdown was in response to MKO attack; I left that (for now) simply because it seemed sensible enough to have a good source somewhere.
To prevent further damages, I am probably going to reinstate my version of the article since it was a careful removal of un-encyclopedic content, while your blind revert 'for the sake of talk' simply reintroduced the problematic version. Most of it was unsourced anyway, so I am justified even in that respect. Perhaps you should make a compelling case for putting certain questionable items back in, rather than leaving them in with a tag. There is no reason to favor the questionable, poorly/not-sourced version. Do you contest the neutrality of my version? I basically just removed random anti-IRI recap of the lead & similar commentary ('Aftermath'), so the edit did not make it more POV. A neutral version should be used to be on the safe side. Please explain what you think.
Yes, I do plan to expand it over time, though I encourage others to do so as well, just with strong & reliable sources. I don't like to be harsh with these things, but frankly, the article version before my edits wasn't acceptable at all for an encyclopedia; I stand by my edits. So, I will reinstate it, but if you really contest my version feel free to add the POV tag and we can work on it from there. Thanks. The Behnam 08:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:1988 executions of Iranian prisoners/Unrelated and Uncivil remarks --Rayis 11:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youtube video

If you can confirm the authenticity of the video it is an acceptable source. Otherwise, not reliable. Perhaps you can just find an official BBC link, or at least a transcript? The Behnam 05:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further reading

  • Abrahamian Ervand. Tortured Confessions. Berkeley, Cal.: University of California Press, 1999. 978-0-520-21866-6
  • Afshari Reza. Human Rights in Iran. The Abuse of Cultural Relativism. 2001. ISBN 0-8122-3605-X
  • Final Report on the situation of human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran by the Special Representative of the Commission on Human Rights, Mr. Reynaldo Galindo Pohl, pursuant to Commission resolution 1992/67 of 4 March 1992. Document number E/CN.4/1993/41 http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/Documents?OpenFrameset
  • Cooper Roger. Death Plus Ten Years (Paperback). Harpercollins; New Ed edition (May 1995) ISBN 0006381030
  • Rejali Darius. Torture and Modernity: Self, society and state in modern Iran. Westview Press1994.

This is from the Massacre of Iranian political prisoners which is getting deleted. It may be of interest for future contributions to this article. --Rayis 21:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll add it, thanks. The Behnam 21:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It appears that it was there already. The Behnam 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Lol who knows, I may have added it myself.. --Rayis 21:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amnesty International

For some reason I'm having trouble finding the AI report on the matter. Perhaps I need to eat. Anyway, it should be included in the response section, along with other significant groups. If anyone can find it, it would be an excellent addition. Thanks. The Behnam 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm yeah. I don't know if we can find the original report from that year on their site, it depends on their archives I guess --Rayis 22:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I contacted Amnesty, and apparently it is available in a published title "IRAN violations of Human Rights 1987 - 1990 >>MDE 13/21/90 ISBN: 0 86210 188 3." --Rayis 11:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, it looks like I may be able to get them soon in email.. --Rayis 11:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Great. I'm going to look to see if HRW said anything about the incidents. The Behnam 19:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
HRW response added. The Behnam 21:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Excellent. I haven't heard from the Amnesty organiser who was gonna scan it yet although apparently it may be available in university libraries (I have seen the Amnesty year books so maybe next to them). Also I think lots of groups were included in the executions, especially the guerrilla type ones like Iranian People's Fedai Guerrillas [1] [2] --Rayis 21:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, this unreliable source mentions an AI day in the first paragraph that may help us in our search [3]. The Behnam 21:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I found another item [4]. While it is possible to just use it as a ref, it may also be better to ref directly to the articles mentioned within. The Behnam 21:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I recieved the AI report in email, it is very comprehensive and very detailed. Sadly the collection of AI reports here does not have these. But interesting this report suggests that there were 900 reports of executions that year only for those with "criminal offenses"!! that's about a 100 times of all reported executions of last year in the world.. --Rayis 11:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
That's a lot of executions. Anyway, just add the AI information and cite the title, publication date, and whatever else that is needed so that the reader can obtain it if he needs to. The Behnam 18:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think we should move the article to 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners? --Rayis 00:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Definitely. They may have executed some 'normal' prisoners in 1988 but that is ain't what this here article refers to, so I support the move to a more accurate title. The Behnam 23:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patchouli

User:Patchouli, who has since earned himself a permanent community ban, was closely involved with this article. Please make sure that the article closely adheres to the standards of NPOV acceptable here. Much thanks, Khodavand 11:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry it's being watched closely. However please do not revert blindly, --Rayis 12:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
No Rayis ain't a Patchouli sock, and I know Patchouli socks. You need to give a specific content objection as Patchouli's former involvement alone is not grounds for a neutrality tag. I've been through this article quite a bit and I don't see it in need of anything except expansion. In a sense, I've already checked it for neutrality, but if you have a specific problem with the article, please bring it up here for discussion. And please don't make ill-considered accusations. Thanks. The Behnam 14:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Haha, where are those accusations coming from? and based on what?! Keep your uncivil accusations to yourself, Khodavand (talk • contribs • count), I suggest you be careful about reverting user's edits based on your baseless accusations --Rayis 16:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorist group

I've restored the terrorist mention for MKO, as this is generally the convention in RS news sources. It is also important to context here, since there is a difference between killing a bunch of perceived terrorists and just killing a bunch of 'political' people. Let's not whitewash the group, as this presents a distorted view of the situation. The Behnam 17:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats exactly my point, the people who were killed were not all terrorists, they were members of political groups, MKO being one of them. Currently by restoring that version, it looks like all IR did was to kill "terrorists" --Rayis 18:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
No, the line right under mentions Communists and other progressive groups. I am just clarifying MKO's usual classification. There is no need to worry. The Behnam 19:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Alright. Well I hope you are OK with the compromised version. I hope to expand on it soon --Rayis 19:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah that looks good. But about the 'it is claimed' part, doesn't that seem odd? I mean, it either happened after or it didn't. Of course, what is claimed is that there was a causal connection between them, so perhaps that needs to be clarified. I'll wing it. The Behnam 19:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Look good? The Behnam 19:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I mean it's not too important until it is expanded fully. But I will add sources for that specific part, from what I remember from the Amnesty source, it actually said "It is claimed" (I don't remember what it said the source was) --Rayis 19:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. It would be nice to have some more detail about which other progressive groups were also affected. The Behnam 19:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not much familiar with the details of the event. But Khomeini's letter clearly mentions the position of PMOI in the Iran-Iraq war and their attack on Iranian borders in cooperation with Saddam Hossein. Then he wrote if those prisoners still support PMOI policy they need to be executed. Khomeini's letter only and only mentions PMOI members and no one else. To me, his letter is more or less fair. May be he could sentence them to jail for life instead. But obviously, as a leader of the state, he had no right to release those prisoners. Sina Kardar 16:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)