Talk:1941 Odessa massacre

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i did not had any idea , jews in russia were so brutly masscared , i relly have smpathaty for them may god bless their soul , and rest in peace.

[edit] message

To the original author of this article: It is a sad fact that Wikipedia articles don't quote their sources, especially when they deal with controversial political events. It goes without saying that the Romanians who will read this article will be skeptical about it and will doubt of its truth. (Many people in Romania consider Antonescu as a national hero and are reluctant to admit any Romanian responsibility for the Holocaust). I am ready to admit that they are not guilty for this, they just lack knowledge.

This article says "General Ion Antonescu ordered from Bucharest that for every killed Romanian and German officer, 200 Jews and Communists were to be killed, and for every soldier, 100 were to be executed. All the Communists were to be imprisoned and one person was to be taken hostage from every Jewish family".

My question is: if this is a historically undisputable fact, why is not the order issued by Antonescu scanned and put on the internet, so that no one should doubt about the atrocities ordered by Antonescu? I think that there is such an order, written on a piece of paper which was preserved after the fall of Antonescu regime and was probably used at his trial against him. If it could be made available to any person interested, then it would be impossible for any person with a minimal moral conscience to consider Antonescu as a positive hero.

So: (1) is there such a document written/signed by Antonescu? (2) can it be scanned and made available online?

And - obviously - if there is not such a document, what is the evidence for the claim made in the Wikipedia article? laurian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.109.154.227 (talk • contribs)

[edit] restoring traditional title

Please do not move articles to controversial names without consensus. I did not see a discussion regarding the move to Odessa Holocaust, therefore I am restoring the long-standing name. If there are going to be other articles named Odessa massacre, then we could discuss WP:DISAMBIG. Perhaps Odessa massacre (Holocaust) or some such would be appropriate, but I dislike parentheses in titles. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odessa Holocaust

Hi! There is nothing too wrong in titling Odessa massacre, but the very name of event historically is reffered to the masssacre that occured in Odessa in 1905 [1]. So, it could be more correct to call the extermination of Jews traditionaly a Holocaust to avoid any misunderstanding of the title. Truly, Paganel 18:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

As in other similar cases in WP, I think it would be proper to reserve the title Odessa massacre for the most famous/infamous one and have WP:REDIRECTs and WP:DISAMBIGUATIONs for other tragedies that scholarly sources may refer to as "Odessa massacre". Perhaps the best name for this one would be Odessa massacre (Holocaust) or Odessa massacre (1941). In general, The Holocaust (Ha-Shoah) is a common name for the genocide of European Jews, therefore I don't think Odessa Holocaust is an encyclopedic title. Right now it is a redirect to Odessa massacre. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Right You are. But it can be called Holocaust in Odessa, like Holocaust in Poland, Holocaust in Romania, Holocaust in Estonia. But the word Holocaust must be present, firstly, to avoid double meaning (The Odessa Massacre of 1905). And it really was a Holocaust and not an abstract massacre! So, the "Odessa massacre (Holocaust)", proposed by You, or "Odessa Holocaust Massacre" or, as it was, "Odessa Holocaust" or "Holocaust in Odessa" would be a nice title for the redirection, because this word must be present. What is your opinion? Very often I pass along the mass graves of it, and I know that a massacre is something caotic, but in Odessa it was not like this, it was a very well organized process of extermination, a Holocaust. Truly, Paganel 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's continue the discussion here. I am copying the above from our talk pages over here and requesting more opinions from Talk:The Holocaust. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought Holocaust in X series is for countries/regions, such as Poland, Romania, Estonia. Do we have any Holocaust in X city? If other editors are OK with the title Holocaust in Odessa, then I'm OK too. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Why not, if it`s more exact. Birchgrove 16:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Odessa Holocaust is an encyclopedic title. Can you show what scholarly sources refer to it as such? Holocaust in Odessa is a little bit better. Regarding "chaotic", are you sure you are not mixing up "massacre" with "pogrom"? Massacre most commonly refers to individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing where the victims have no reasonable means of defense and pose no immediate physical threat to the assailants.

I think 1941 Odessa massacre is more precise title for this article, so I have moved it to that title. Eventually Odessa massacre should be a WP:DISAMBIG. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)