Talk:1934 FIFA World Cup
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[edit] Requested move
Football World Cup 1934 → 1934 FIFA World Cup – following the consensus of naming the World Cup articles as FIFA World Cup in Wikipedia, and consistency of naming the major international football tournaments.
Discuss here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Competitions#Requested move of Football World Cup articles. --Pkchan 10:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Moved per requested move. --Pkchan 12:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] League table
What is the relevance of this? Guinnog 06:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ершы is comparative table of results of teams. I know that it not absolutely correct a thing, but some leageus, which consist of number of divisions use this system. Behind this system we can compare results of two commands which have taken off at the same stage.
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- In a competition that was knockout? Guinnog 17:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
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- One problem (apart from its complete irrelevance to the tournament, and the fact it might mislead readers into thinking this was a league competition) is that not all teams played the same number of games, so it isn't even a fair comparison. Adding points is just silly, when points weren't awarded at the time! Guinnog 18:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Indded, and if you did so would you award two or three points for a win? Jooler 12:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
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The rankings were used by FIFA to determine seeds in recent years. The tables from 1978 to present are valid and for consistency we can include the ones from 1930-1974 as well. For that matter FIFA has ranked the early tournaments anyway and a document with those rankings can be found here http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/releases/en/fwc_origin_en.pdf Libro0 17:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nazi or Empire Flag Flown by Germany?
I am fairly certain that Germany flew the Nazi flag when they competed in this tournament. I will try to find some evidence of this, and if I find it I will list it here and change the flags for that country, as has been done for the 1938 FIFA World Cup. Uris 18:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- I found a description of the Nazi flag being flown at the '34 World Cup here. I can't find any evidence of the Empire flag ever being flown at the '34 tournament. Uris 19:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- When the Nazis came to power in 1933 the black-red-gold flag was entirely removed and replaced with the black-white-red, though they would eventually, on September 15, 1935, replace virtually all German governmental flags with designs based on the swastika flag that had been their party flag. Realismadder 23:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Czech Republic -> Czechoslovakia
In the little diagram of the course of the tournament, Czechoslovakia is anachronistically called the "Czech Republic." This needs to be fixed, but the wikicode for this baffles me, so I leave it to others! --Jfruh (talk) 19:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Goalscorers
We really need to find out the correct scorers. Right now the match reports don't match the top scorers list. • 辻斬り? 10:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- See here. There is no firm answer to this question. The official FIFA match reports say one thing, the RSSSF says another. Lots of great research may or may not have been done, BUT if that research is not VERIFIABLE it doesn't belong here. And we (Wikipedians) do not do original research; we report the facts claimed by others. According to WP:V, the standard used by Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. Thus, in the absence of a detailed description by RSSSF or other third parties stating WHY FIFA's reports are wrong, we have to accept FIFA. Thus, I am in the process of changing all the scorer information to reflect official FIFA reports, but, as I did 1930 FIFA World Cup I will be inserting ref tags detailing what the disputed information is. This sounds clunky but I think it works out pretty well in practice. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 01:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Knockout stages diagram not showing eightfinals
Why is this? The eight "first round" matches are "knockout" matches themselves and part of the "knockout stage". The corresponding section of the 1938 World Cup (the only other world cup to have the same format) has the same style. I assume this was done on purpose to make it look similar to latter world cups, so I won't change it yet; I think, however, that this is unnecessary and inaccurate. The eightfinals matches should be added to the brackets. Anyone agree?
- Why is the "bracket" diagram placed between the first round and quarter-final stages? Shouldn't it be either before or after the complete tournament details......? ChrisTheDude 08:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I moved the bracket to before the listing of matches, as it made no sense to place it *after* round one, however, the template used is coded to show the "round of 16" as "Second Round", whereas in this Cup it was in fact the first round - I can't figure out how to change this. Any ideas....? ChrisTheDude 07:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
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- The general template could say "Eightfinals", and this wouldn't affect the other articles. ChaChaFut 13:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
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- That was an even better solution. Thanks. ChaChaFut 22:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Yeah, I think that is for the best. There are tons of these templates already, so, hey, why not more? :)
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[edit] What scandal?
The quarterfinals provided the first replay that the World Cup had seen when Italy and Spain drew 1-1 after extra time (of, as well said, one of the first scandals of World Cup history).
Does anybody know what that comment in brackets actually means? What was the scandal? Shouldn't this comment be either supported or deleted? R Lowry 21:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I went ahead and deleted it, as it didn't say anything coherent. If anyone can figure out what the original editor was trying to say, and has a source for it, please add something back in. I can guess that it might have had something to do with the scandal of Mussolini pressuring referees which is mentioned in the intro, but who knows? -- Deville (Talk) 23:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
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- If I am not mistaken, this match is often considered scandalous mainly because the Italian players were allowed by the referee to play in a very unsportsmanlike manner, and commit numerous fouls without punishment. Much has been written about this, explaining how the outcome of the match was affected by the officials, as proven by Luigi Ferrari's goal while the goalkeeper was being fouled. The referee ignored this and allowed the goal, later disallowed a legitimate goal that would have given the victory to Spain, allowed the Italian players to do what they pleased on the field, and did everything in his power to help the Italian team win. This was only in one match; this was the tone of the tournament from the beginning, a tournament which prevented great teams like Spain and Austria from getting further. Here's a good read: Severe Doubts regarding Italy's 1934 World Cup Win (written by a very well respected member of that message board, whose posts are actually of encyclopedic caliber).
- According to the link to the forum post, the supposed scandal is discussed in several sources but most of the named ones are German, like Fußballweltmeisterschaft 1934 Italien (Gebundene Ausgabe) and an article in "Fussball Weltzeitschrift" published in 1996. However, there is no conclusive evidence that a scandal actually happened. All we have are reports, research, etc done today using sources from back then which may or may not be accurate or unbiased. For example, some articles may have reported the Spain-Italy match as having been officated in favour of Italy while others may have not seen it that way. Also, we should question how evidence is used by contemporary writers and researchers and why certain articles, stats, evidence is used and others not. That is, all we have are different interpretations, versions, and perspectives of what happened but nothing absolute and we shouldn't simply accept anything that is said or written without deconstructing it first.
- I disagree. Wikipedia is NOT the place for deconstruction, or ferretting out which of several conflicting claims is correct, if any. That is Original Research. See WP:OR and WP:V. What should be here is a description of what is verifiable, not a determination of what is "true". If there is a controversy, the controversy should be stated here -- BOTH sides, please, with an indication of who the "sides" are. WP:NPOV and all. If there are VERIFIABLE sources that claim the match was rigged, put it here and label it. So, instead of "the match was rigged in favor of the Italians" you would have "some German sources (listed) allege that the match was rigged". \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 23:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- If I am not mistaken, this match is often considered scandalous mainly because the Italian players were allowed by the referee to play in a very unsportsmanlike manner, and commit numerous fouls without punishment. Much has been written about this, explaining how the outcome of the match was affected by the officials, as proven by Luigi Ferrari's goal while the goalkeeper was being fouled. The referee ignored this and allowed the goal, later disallowed a legitimate goal that would have given the victory to Spain, allowed the Italian players to do what they pleased on the field, and did everything in his power to help the Italian team win. This was only in one match; this was the tone of the tournament from the beginning, a tournament which prevented great teams like Spain and Austria from getting further. Here's a good read: Severe Doubts regarding Italy's 1934 World Cup Win (written by a very well respected member of that message board, whose posts are actually of encyclopedic caliber).
I've entered a few pieces on Rene Mercet and Ivan Eklind and Louis Baert which should provide a few answers. The 'scandal' which is referred to in Fascism and Football by Simon Martin is that Mussolini met with and, presumably, influenced Eklind (who refereed both the tight semi-final, v. the Austrian Wunderteam managed by Hugo Meisl (see my entry) and the final). What seems to be reported widely, but without citation, is that Mercet was banned from further international appointments by the Swiss FA after the replayed Italy v Spain quarter-final (in which Italy won). Please see my Rene Mercet entry for contemporary newspaper reports as to his performance. This is not evidence for him being bribed; it could be that he was overawed by the occasion. Jean Langenus did write that the Italians made it obvious that they wanted to win the tournament (as quoted in Glanville's Story of the World Cup) and, I suppose, a lot of the gaps have been filled in from there.
One thing that does seem to escape reason is the amount of replacements that appeared in the replay (refereed by Rene Mercet - see my entry) the following day. There is one reference to the fact that Ricardo Zamora had been injured in the first game and his place went to a replacement who was injured in the build up to the Italian winner. To put some meat on the bones have a look at this video and check out how both Zamora, the Spanish goalkeeper, and Platzer, the Austrian goalkeeper, are fouled in the run up to the goals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwvurx3Ih3s
Hope that helps ... Steve bloomer.
Not really... Both looked like players chasing loose balls in 50-50 situations. How do Glanville and Martin know these facts.Were they around at the time.Maybe they knew Mussolini? Every home nation gets favourable calls. Some have won with non existant goals and getting 6 with ease. So much time and effort bloomer, on a foreign nations negativity. Its so sad.Some people need to get a life. Or maybe come from a more successful football nation.FV.
[edit] CZE -> TCH
Shouldn't the abbrevation for Czechoslovakia be TCH and not CZE. CZE didn't come into use until the founding of the Czech Republic in 1993.
At least RSSSF.com is using CZE for these teams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liioadin (talk • contribs) 17:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Italian flags
All the flags concerning Italy on this (and 1938 world cup) refer to flagicon ITA old.. which apparently doesn't exist. Which particular flag that is suupposed to be, for germany it's the old empire flag (red-white-black)..
- Actually I found the image this most likely refers to, but at least my browser (firefox on linux) has some issues rendering the svg file. The image is here and downloading the file and then opening the file works...: flag
[edit] Possible Fixing of the Cup
I am removing this, because there is no source or citation given. Might as well say that Brazil fixed the 2002 Cup for all the evidence given here. -Izzo
