Talk:1550-1600 in fashion

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Contents 1 Still to come 2 Galleries 3 Edit to General Trends 4 Vandalism 5 Footnotes 6 Question on elizabethan fashion 7 Please! 8 Undo move? 9 Requested move 9.1 Can we get consensus?

[edit] Still to come

More on hats and hairstyles. German, French, and Spanish images. More on sleeve styles. Images of blackwork collars and cuffs. Either the Pelican or Phoenix portaits of Elizabeth for the partlets and chemises (but this is still Anglo-centric as it is). Work work work!

Added French, Spanish, and Swedish images, the Pelican portrait, hats and hairstyles, more links. Unless I take the leap and address middle-class clothing, I am pretty much done. Will probably hold comment on Puritan styles and "sadd colors" for 1600-1650 in fashion. PKM 21:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galleries

Added image galleries. Thoughts? Better? Worse? PKM 18:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. Gflores ^Talk 02:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! PKM 05:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit to General Trends

I have deleted this sentence:

The gradual change in fashion could be attributed to the renewal of England and the acceptance of new thinking and ideas to influence society.

Fashion change wasn't particularly gradual in this era compared to the periods before and after, and I don't think this adds anything of use to the reader. - PKM 02:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

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This article was recategorized in 2006 in accordance with a scheme for organizing articles in Category:History of clothing.

That effort has been superseded by WikiProject Fashion.

Please join that project or see its talk page for further discussion.

- PKM 03:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I have reverted back to what I think is the last complete good version after a series of vandalisms and partial corrections. I have have deleted any legitimate corrections I do apologize. - PKM 07:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

Someone taggeed this "no footnotes" and someone else removed the tag, but I agree footnotes would be good and I will add some. - PKM 03:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question on elizabethan fashion

I need help on Elizabethan fashion; i want to know the different types of clothes people would have worn in different weather?

e.g. hot/cold weather

Thanks! from Nad

[edit] Please!

Please answer me! this is really important! i need 2 know now! nad

[edit] Undo move?

This article was recently retitled "1550-1600 in Western European fashion", which makes sense out of context; however, this is part of a uniform series that covers fashion from the middle ages to the 20th century. Articles from the 18th century forward specifically include American (and Canadian) fashions where those are appropriate.

I would suggest that "fashion" itself is a western European concept that has now become global.

Retitling one article in the series makes no sense, and determining when the topic ceases to be exclusively European (somewhere between 1620 and 1776?) is difficult; long wrangling by editors last year essentially revolved around this topic.

Rather than simply undo the move, I want to open this for comment. How do others feel? Should we move back to "1550-1600 in fashion".- PKM (talk) 19:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say move back. There is material at fashion that explains why the concept itself is not applicable to other parts of the world at this date (or for some time afterwards). Johnbod (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Just so that everyone undestands, I did realize that this was part of a series of articles, and I do believe that they should all be the same. But my hope was to spark a discussion, which appears to be starting. I thank User:PKM for choosing to discuss intead of immediately undoing the move. Oh, and incidentally, I claim no expertise in this area, either historically or contemporarily. It just seemed to me to be a misnamed article. Unschool (talk) 21:16, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

After reading User:Johnbod's post, I looked at the article, and found the following sentences which I am guessing are the basis for his above comments:

The habit of people continually changing the style of clothing worn, which is now worldwide, at least among urban populations, is a distinctively Western one. Though there are signs from earlier. In 8th century Cordoba (Spain), Ziryab, a famous musician and stylist migrant from Baghdad, introduced the first germ of fashion in Europe.

First of all, I find that these two statements do not appear to be in harmony. The first sentence does indeed support Johnbod's comments. But then the passage goes on to give credit to a Baghdad native for introducing fashion to Western Europe. I suppose that this raises a number of issues. First of all, did 8th century Islamic culture constitute a part of Western European civilization—or even "Western" civilization more generally? I don't think of it as such, but I'm sure some would argue otherwise. And of course, even if this is not the case, I suppose one could argue that a Muslim in Umayyad Spain could come up with the concept of "fashion" without reference to his life as a member of Islamic culture, but that seems to be stretching things a bit, to me, at least. So on its face, in my humble opinion, based upon what I have read thus far, this notion that fashion is a European construct seems a bit fabricated.

Secondly, I also feel constrained to point out that the above passage is without citation, unless one assumes that the source first listed later in the paragraph is the support. And what is that source? A book, entitled, Muslim Heritage in Our World, written by coauthors al-Hassani, Woodcok and Saoud.

I'm just not very comfortable with this notion that we white folks invented fashion. There were many, many cultures around before us, and I have little trouble imagining the existence of fashion—if not universally, at least amongst the privileged classes—prior to the Europeans. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that I need to see more evidence. As I said above, I have no expertise in this area. I'm just asking questions. Unschool (talk) 21:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Both Blanche Payne and James Laver state that fashion arose in Europe between the 12th and 14th centuries. They are authorities in their field, and their comments are cited in the earlier articles in this series. I accept no responsibility for the accuracy of the material cited in the article on Fashion since I generally avoid working there. If you aren't "comfortable" with the notion that "we white folks" invented fashion, then please do some reseach to support a thesis otherwise.

In 30 years of (admittedly avocational) research on fashion, I have found no suggestion that fashion as we know began anywhere other than among the upper classes of medieval Europe (and frankly, I find the idea that perfectly functional and attractive clothing should be discarded because it is "out of fashion" is a mark of cultural inferiority rather than reverse).

If you wanted to start a discussion, I would have preferred that you tag the article for a possible move or bring the topic up in the Fashion Project discussion area, make your case, and get consensus before making the move. But it's nothing that can't be reverted in 5 minutes even with subsequent editing of content, and it's certainly not worth a edit war over. - PKM (talk) 22:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I must say I hadn't noticed the Muslim Spain stuff, which is all interpolated. It doesn't really sound like fashion - ie rapidly changing styles of dress - to me, & the sources are not specilist. The "musician & stylist" doesn't have an article & I've not seen his name before. Byzantine dress is really too slow moving to have fashion. I also would point out that "Western European" means the "Western part" of Europe - a rather difficult concept at this date, but not really what the article covers. Johnbod (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is Ziryab, currently edit-protected over his origin - Persian/Kurd/Arab, which hardly mentions his "stylist" side in any of the versions I've seen. Johnbod (talk) 22:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Some comments from Unschool in reply

1. As you can imagine, given my professed ignorance on this topic, I have no idea who Payne and Laver are. And neither is the subject of a Wikipedia article. That their work is cited in the earlier articles is nice, but that is not where I was directed to look.
2. I certainly do not expect you (or anyone else) to take "responsibility" for the Fashion article. As I just stated, I merely made comments on it as it had been a suggested source of the information needed to understand the point under discussion. It would probably be a good idea for someone with a greater level of knowledge than mine to add that to the Fashion article. While you may not enjoy frequenting Fashion, I suggest you are better equipped than I to make the addition.
3. If I indicate a doubt about the possibility that fashion is not necessarily a European creation, why am I expected to first do research on the topic? I have been in countless discussions on Wikipedia over the past two years where I have willingly provided information and direction on topics with which I am well-acquainted to those who are not. I have never responded to someone else's inquiry with a "go fish" directive. Do you think that my question was stupid? Is it not a reasonable question to ask? Was there absolutely zero chance that the undocumented statement to which I was directed as evidence, was at least partially an ethnocentristic blurb?
4. The suggestion that I first broach the subject on the relevant Project page seems reasonable enough. However, I am largely unacquainted with the "backstage" areas of Wikipedia. I never know where to look, and, even when I find what looks relevant, it's not always clear where to place such a discussion. Sure, I could commit to learning the ropes backstage, but in how many areas? Does my lack of knowledge in this area mean that I cannot have observations, comments, and suggestions for change? Another thing: the people that frequent Project pages is likely a small subset of the people that look at the pages concerned—I prefer to have a wider level of participation in discussions, rather than limit it to the (admitedly more knowledgable) cabal that hangs out on Project pages.
5. Another editor and I recently sought advice on a project page. Our request was posted on October 27 and has still received zero responses. Only one instance, I grant you, but it doesn't speak well for the process.
6. I see that, other than Johnbod's acknowledgement that he had never apparently noticed the stuff on Muslim Spain, that my questions were totally ignored. The fashion article currently credits a person from the Middle East as introducing fashion to western Europe. So am I supposed to just dummy up and pretend that I didn't read this?

Look, I've acknowledged my ignorance. But I don't acknowledge stupidity. I submit that a fair-minded person would recognize that I have broached some reasonably well-considered questions that deserve more than a "we know better than you" response, which is what I feel has occurred thus far. I will acknowledge that I should have tagged the article for a proposed name change first—that I did not do so was rather gauche, and I apologize. I have no problem with the move being undone immediately, as long as this discussion continues without what is coming across as a slightly patronizing tone. Of course, internet communications being what they are, I could of course be misreading that. Let us all assume good faith. Unschool (talk) 00:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

My apologies if I sounded patronizing. The comment on not being responsible for the fashion article should have had a bemused smiley attached to it; many people seem to have Agendas with that topic. (insert bemused smiley here)

I, too, have asked for advice on an otherwise active project page and gotten no response (trying to identify a saint by her iconography; not my strong suit).

Thanks for your civility, and for your conditional support on the rename. - PKM (talk) 02:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of the stuff about fashion being a Western thing is referenced to Fernand Braudel who does have an article, if that is any help. Much of the stuff about Ziryab is copied from a website (now noted on that talk page) that also has a quote from a more professional sounding historian saying his role is somewhat of a legend as far as fashion goes (but not music, where he is clearly a major figure). There is in fact good evidence that Arab clothing was as static in style as everywhere else, which is not to say changes never happened, especially at times of great political or cultural upheavals. But you don't get the steady changes all the time that, at an ever-increasing rate, mark the West, and are what we call fashion. Johnbod (talk) 02:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move