Talk:12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend

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[edit] Arbitrary header

It is true that the whole of the SS, including the Waffen SS, was delared a criminal organisation at the Nuremberg trials. However, it is also true that the West German government of the 1980's (not sure of exact date) legitimised the W-SS by recognising the service they performed as a fighting force and granting them their war pensions. To remove this fact is to misrepresent history and as I understand it contrary to the aims of Wikipedia. It is not true that the '12th SS Panzer-Division in particular established a reputation for atrocities'. The division did commit atrocities, but as these were commited by a number of units, on both sides, there is nothing unique about the record of the 12th. Thanks. D.Mellor 6.7.06

On the contrary, many histories of the Normandy campaign mention the 12th SS specially for their murder of Candian POWs. Of course they were not the only unit to kill POWs, but they are particularly well-known for it, and for the large numbers killed. "Legitimized" is your word and is original research. Claiming that it is a reversal of Nuremberg is misrepresenting history, is it not? DMorpheus 16:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

But surely, a democratic government can not recognise and grant funds to an organisation it regards as illegal. Therefore it must be legitimised.

That would be: original research (since it is your conclusion) ; a POV statement ("legitimize" is a volatile term to use when describing the Waffen-SS) and incorrect (pensions are given to individuals, not the Waffen-SS organization). DMorpheus 19:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


I got to say that the HJ deserves a better name.

surely any mention of this unit must include mention of the events that made them notorious, like the killing of Canadian prisoners at Abbaye Ardenne. This was major news in the days after D-Day and resulted in intense fighting disregard on both sides for prisoner welfare.

  • well, you can edit the page as well. Personally I don't have the details of that but feel free to add them! The Land 16:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm very surprised that under the 'referances' section (and even in this discussion) no one has mentioned 'The history of the 12thSS Panzer Division 'Hitlerjugend'; Volumes 1 and 2' by Hubert Meyer as it is really the major source for anyone looking to write about the 12SS as he backs himself up with offcial documents and eyewitness accounts from both sides. Even though he does not dwell on the War Crimes caused as it's mainly looking at them fighting, he does mention the SS patrol finding the Officer stapped to the front of the Sherman, and other Allied War Crimes (even though the allied war crimes isn't the topic of this article i just thought i'd mention it) I would also like to say that dispite one person's comment 'Grenadiers' by Kurt Meyer is still a usefull resource in looking at the 12SS. After all, who said that the British and Canadian accounts arn't lying or have forgotten/added facts? Also look at 'SS-Hitlerjugend; The history of the twelth SS division 1943-45' by Rupert butler. I may add some information to this article but if anyone else would like to then i do recommend these books (especially Hubert Meyer's one as it's very detailed about the fighting, what units took place (offcial Allied reports were frequently wrong, especially when inventing Tiger companies) and also the casualties (you get the idea reading it that Meyer was frustrated with the lack of casualty information from Allied records when compaired to the Germans who were excellent at keeping them). Like i said before that little rant, this is showing people helpful resources if you wish to add anything to the article. I largely agree with this article, but i do have one thing to grumble about which is the fact that in everything i've read i've seen no hard evidence that Kurt Meyer ordered no prisoners to be taken (only shaky evidence at his trial). Bouncydave 23:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Allied War Crimes

Although this page is not the place for this, as User:Sam Spade has said, atrocities (or rather 'Questionable Actions') on both sides during the fighting around Carpiquet, Authie and Buron are well documented. Mohnke's issuance of a no prisoners order was in response to elements of the Canadian 3rd Division tying the body of a captured HJ trooper to the front of a Sherman V. I'm at work ATM, so don't have my sources and the only one i can think of offhand is the Michael Reynolds Steel Inferno: I SS Panzerkorps in Normandy, the Leibstandare IV/1 by Lehmann and Meyer's autobiography Grenadiere (although this last source is, admittedly, somewhat biased).

Also, see the webpage [[1]]. The well known images, one of which is posted on the page, clearly show SS-HJ men posed by a Canadian soldier after an Interrogation. I'm not argueing that SS-HJ was not condemned unjustly, as they themselves also inargueably committed war crimes in Normandy, but it is clearly documented that at least the Canadian 3rd Division did also perform several questionable activities with regards to HJ POWs. --Ansbachdragoner 02:01, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[note added by a14krr "Mohnke's issuance of a no prisoners order was in response to elements of the Canadian 3rd Division tying the body of a captured HJ trooper to the front of a Sherman V." factually quite incorrect and confuses an incident that occured where a recce armoured car crew of the Inns and Courts Regiment of the 3rd British Division (in the same area of fighting) tied captured German officers to one of thier cars and attempted to return to thier own lines. The officers refused to voluntarily sit on the car. The Germans were killed when the vehicle was fired on and destroyed. They might have been trying to get thier captives back but their motives may be more evil. There are no such documented cases of Canadian units tying anyone to a Sherman.]

The photo clearly shows an injured German soldier. The cause of his injuries is anybody's guess. You've interpreted it as torture, but there's no evidence of that in the photo. Also, there's nothing on the page you refer to that indicates the soldier in the photo is Canadian. In fact, the (unattributed) quote on the page only refers to "English" and "British" soldiers (specifically the The Inns of Court Regiment, a regiment from England). There's nothing to suggest that any Canadians --members of a completely independent allied army-- were associated with the events.

[Note from A14KRR: The picture is from official Canadian sources and I'll get the DND and Public Archives print numbers and full caption. It is a Canadian soldier. I know that it was taken in August not June and is therefore quite innapropriate for this discussion. As there were no incidences of 12SS killing Canadians documented after July 17th it seems unlikely that anything similar was going on on the Canadian side. I know the caption simply states its a 12th SS prisoner. There are several photos of 12th SS prisoners under guard in the Canadian collection including a couple taken early in June. Until we find documentation that all the 12 SS prisoners politely marched into captivity without a fight it seems less than useful to employ pictures that show injured prisoners. A14KRR ]

As for the case of attrocities on both sides, even had the Canadians (or British, as that seems to be the accusation on the website you cite) actually tied a German soldier to a tank, this would still be no justification for the shooting of 18 prisoners (or many more, if the other cases attributed to SS troops at this time are included) nor especially for an order to take no prisoners whatsoever. Reprisals, to have had any legal justification in the law of war, must be measured and of no greater severity than the original offence that provoked them. An order to take no prisoners, or to execute a disproportionate number of prisoners in reprisal is thus a war crime.


-Edited out the line "The issuing of orders not to take prisoners in retaliation for a certain action by the enemy was a daily occurrence in both the German, Canadian and British commands." since this appears to be an unsubstantiated claim that allied forces committed as many attrocities as the SS and Hitler Youth. Please provide references to supporting evidence (preferably something other than the autobiographies of SS war criminals).

Same comment - "The issuing of orders not to take prisoners in retaliation for a certain action by the enemy was a daily occurrence in both the German, Canadian and British commands" I have never heard of such an order in British or Candian units. Unless a credible citation can be provided this comment does not belong here. DMorpheus 00:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistent Numbers In War Crimes Descriptions

Under the 'Normandy Campaign' heading of the article, this is stated:

"It is during this period [on June 8th, see prior paragraph] that 18 Canadian prisoners of war from the Nova Scotia Highlanders were executed at the Abbey Ardennes by elements of the division."

Under the 'War Crimes' heading of the articlee, this is stated:

"When the division was first engaged in action in June 1944, there were several cases of atrocities being committed. On June 8, thirty-six Canadians were allegedly executed by Wilhelm Mohnke's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 26."

At the very least, these numbers are not consistent.

Further, as a general issue, I think the war crimes of the 12th Panzer Division Hitlerjugend need concise, clear and direct citations to make sure a genuine NPOV is achieved. Cheers, Madmagic 07:27, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Madmagic,

The two quotes which you refer to in the article above refer to two different events, one (the Abbaye Ardennes massacre committed on June 8 by elements of Kurt Meyer's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 25) is confirmed while the second, perpetrated by Wilhelm Mohnke's SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 26, is only alleged.--Ansbachdragoner 03:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake Ansbachdragoner. :) I was paying attention to the dates and missed the different unit designations. Cheers, Madmagic 04:00, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


Why was this text removed? It is during this period that 18 Canadian prisoners of war from the Nova Scotia Highlanders were executed at the Abbey Ardennes by elements of the division. DMorpheus 00:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy of figures etc

This article has many factual errors and I'm attempting to correct as many as I can. There is a lot of information in various primary (archives etc) and secondary (books about the campaign) and they are growing in accuracy and depth as time goes on. post any questions here and I'll try to clarify.

There is a growing tendancy to lionize the accomplishments of units like the 12 SS (which indeed were many) and ignore thier offences, but that is not a reason to not put thier mistakes and failings in the same places in order to let newcomers form thier own opinions. My theory on this is that the Waffen SS have historically been made scapegoats for larger issues around the Nazi regime. They were all denied pensions by the West German government just like the regular SS while Army Navy and Air Force vets were accorded pensions.

Many who don't like to see references to the murders committed by a small number of the division's members try to counter by claiming the same things were done on both sides. Thier is no evidence to support that (at least so far). So far there is no anecdotal or official documented instances of this happening on the Canadian side of this fighting. There are instances on both sides of men being killed as they attempted to surrender or as they attempted to get thier enemy to surrender but who among us can judge those actions? Once men are disarmed and leave the fighting under guard the issues are totally different.

I have found descriptions of a serious rift within the leaders of the 26th Regiment about the killing of prisoners by that unit and the 12th Reconnaisance Company. Even as his men fought on against the Canadians on the 8th of June, Bernard Siebken (commander of the 26th Regiment) had a confrontation with his commanding officer Whilhem Mohnke where he complained that prisoners he was sending to Mohnke's headquarters were being killed. He appealed to the division's Intelligence Officer Hubert Meyer (later the division's commander after Kurt Meyer's capture) who informed Siebken that there was no policy that sanctioned the killing of prisoners and in fact they were a valuable intelligence resource. Siebken attempted to contact Mohnke but in the fighting that was still ongoing was unable to reach his commander. Siebken held some remaining Canadians at his own headquarters in the understanding that Division would intervene in the matter. A few hours later Siebken was out among his fighting troops and an officer from Monke's headquarters arrived at the company headquarters and orderded the junior officer in temporary command to personally take the Canadians out and kill them. Very much against his wishes but realistically afraid to refuse the order, he complied.

A man like Siebken deserves to be known to all of us and deserves our utmost respect as a soldier. I'll leave the overall judgements about the cause for which he fought to another forum. Can the same be said for Mohnke?

I'll add this to the war crimes section if I get the proper sources documented. It shows the fact that murders were being committed and that it was being ordered against the moral objections of others within the division.


The article is getting much better and more even handed and hopefully that will continue.

Lets all try to keep it a fair as possible.

A14KRR

On the contrary, over the last few weeks it has become more and more pro-Nazi. DMorpheus 01:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

That's scarey ... I hope the guys who think having pseudo German usernames is appropriate feel the opposite way. If you have the time let me know what in the recent additions makes you feel that way. Maybe simply knowing about Siebken's actions is enough. Its a difficult thing to write about because the more I know about these "people" the more I am impressed by the actions of some and the more I detest the unfathomable subhuman and pathalogical behavior of others among them. I guess you always have to keep your eye on the issues of why any of them were there in the first place and for what evil they were ultimatly fighting. Those are inarguablly cut and dried are they not?


Recent Edit: I removed 'In a fighting force where brutal discipline that would be considered totally unacceptable in any modern army was used to control the troops and where battle police routinely shot their own men it is hardly surprising that crimes occurred.' It does not fit with the earlier description of the unit: 'A result of this was that the morale of the HJ was exceptionally high, and the relationship between the officers, NCOs and men was an informal one, based on mutual trust and respect.' Remember, with an issue like this one individual biases come to the surface very easily. Maybe people with strong feelings about the war should be more careful before editing...

Reply: I take your point but woud it not fit if that mutual respect between the officers and men includes some kind of mutual acceptance that killing large numbers of captured prisoners is to be tolerated? Being a fine fighting force does not make all of its actions comendable. I have strong feelings as obviously you do and I am careful, and thorough. Before wading into this I put a lot of days into researching it. The thought that the training and discipline endured by german combat troops during the Second World War weakened the humane nature of many of them is not my own. I was told that by a veteran of the Grossdeutchland division.

Thanks A14

[edit] Normandy - Norrey

This section, concerning Mohnke's 26th Pz Gren regt attack on Norrey is quite confusing and there are some errors.

Firstly, the present article seems to confuse the attacks launched on June 8th. It is said in the article that Mohnke's grenadiers pushed the "Winnpeg Rifles" out of Norrey-en-Bessin - this is inaccurate. Norrey-en-Bessin was held by the Regina Regiment and was never reoccupied by the German's inspite of several attacks launched on the village.

Referring to the present article, the attack that is stated as starting at "03:30" on June 8th, is referring to the attack by I/26th on Norrey. Norrey was well-defended by C Company of the Regina Regiment, with artillery support, and the attack failed.

Another attack launched on June 8th - by II/26th - is the one that was most successful (albeit temporarily). This attack was not on Norrey-en-Bessin, but on Putot-en-Bessin - which was defended by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles (hence why I think this is where the confusion arises). Despite the similar sounding names, there is a lot of difference. The attack was launched later than the 1st Battalion's attack (around 04:00), and succeeded in capturing Putot and overrunning three companies of the Winnipeg's. A counter-attack by the Canadian-Scottish, at 20:30hrs recaptured the village for the Canadians. A lot of these facts are mentioned in the present article - but are said to have occurred at Norrey rather than at Putot.

I can provide sources if you require them? BobFish 16:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, have gone ahead and changed the Norrey section. Hope it's okay. Have also added a reference, and a References list at the bottom of the article. BobFish 14:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proven War Crimes Are Not "Allegations"

I've just edited the opening paragraph of this article. It was needed.

The war crimes committed at the Abbaye d'Ardenne by soldiers of the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend are not "allegations." They are a known and proven historical fact.

There may be other war crimes accusations against this military unit which are not proven or known historical facts. The killing of the Canadian POWs at Abbaye d'Ardenne is not open to question.

You can read the story -- including the names and ranks of the Canadian POWs -- here:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=Memorials/ww2mem/ardenne —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madmagic (talk • contribs) 08:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. If the citations and references were improved, this article would easily be B class if not GA --dashiellx (talk) 17:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)