Talk:10cc

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10cc was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 15, 2007

Contents

[edit] I'm not in Love

"I'm Not In Love" got back in the charts in 1995 with a diffrent version of the track, making #29, have added this to text as the current wording was wrong. 69.204.6.21 17:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Just thought i'd explain the general cleanup tag. The article needs a re-jig of the biography, really. As it is at the moment it isnt really NPOV ("boasted a wealth of talent"), and it isnt clear what happened when. It also needs images and an infobox. I would do the infobox now, but it isnt clear when they were together, when they were split (did they split in the 90's?), and who was in the band when. -- jeffthejiff 22:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm working my way through this now. Hopefully the chronology is a little easier to follow. The liner notes to a recent CD on their early Strawberry Studios output is a valuable source of info on their early career, including the wonderful song "Umbopo" which they released under the name of Doctor Father. I'll move on to this in the next few days.Grimhim 12:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Probably more work to do yet, but one question: can 10cc be said to be an existing band? The intro should probably refer to them in the past tense, while the sections dividing the stages of their career should probably note their demise after the "Meanwhile" album.Grimhim 11:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Here's another question: is art rock an accurate description of their genre? Wiki's definition of this term includes Brian Eno, Pink Floyd and Genesis, but after How Dare You, 10cc was a pure and simple pop band. There was precious little art rock on Look Hear? or Ten Out of 10. How precise should we be ... "the band was initially art rock but later in its career was pop"...? Grimhim 02:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Following what was obviously a premature nomination for Good Article status, I've decided to work my way through the article again, boosting references as I go. I have to say I'm a bit bothered by the look of the Prehistory section, which I think has too many subheads and is too cluttered. Does someone want to work out a solution? It's not easy because of the separate, but often intertwined careers of the four members, but two pivotal points are their work at Strawberry Studios and the release of Neanderthal Man. Grimhim 06:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've worked on this myself to try to improve the flow and reduce the subheads. Essentially I've now got Godley, Gouldman and Creme's work together in all their projects from 64 to 69; then we cut back to Stewart, which leads on to Strawberry Studios, then the gradual involvement of all four of the boys there, which led to Hotlegs and then to 10cc.
The one drawback of this is that we have Gouldman working with Godley and Creme in '69 before we mention his work with the Mindbenders in '68, but it's one necessary flashback, I guess. All up, I think it reads a little better now and reduces the amount of skipping back and forth between the two sets of players that existed in the previous edit. Grimhim 12:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Members

[edit] Rick Fenn

  • Is Rick Fenn since 1976 until now a (current) member of 10CC, cause this Wikipedia Website says "Second lineup, 1976-present"?
  • At which 10CC albums was Rick Fenn involved?

-- 84.138.107.68 from 07:29 ..., 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

10cc got thier name from same place as Lovin' Spoonful. One spoonful (tea spoon) is the equivalent of 10ccs. It takes 10ccs or a Lovin' Spoonful to knock a chick up. Chris66 September 9 2006

It's one of the stories, but is there a reputable source?Grimhim 22:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


Sounds like a mishearing of an urban legend. See [1] for a debunking.

[edit] Does this band still exist?

There's no suggestion that 10cc will ever record or play again. Gouldman is touring with former 10cc members as "Graham Gouldman and Friends" and Eric Stewart is doing his own thing. Hence my usage of the past tense. Grimhim 20:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

10cc are touring as "10cc featuring Graham Gouldman and friends". See http://www.the10ccfanclub.com/htm/framsne.htm. Therefore I think the band still exists, in name at least. Cpc464 11:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough; I can't argue if that's what he's calling his band. I'd clocked GG & Friends in under Gouldman's own Wiki entry, so I'll update the 10cc entry to note Stewart's absence from the band since 1995 and the fact that a slightly altered lineup has been touring with GG since 2004. Grimhim 11:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Back to this vexed question again. I think the infobox is better left with the band finishing in 1995 and the band referred to in the past tense. The intro to the article and "Later work" explain Gouldman's actions in touring since 2004 with a lineup of his own making and Stewart's clear opposition to this. Stewart, who is half-owner of the 10cc name, believes the band no longer exists, hence Gouldman's careful skirting of the issue when touring.Grimhim 07:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Live discography

10cc In Concert (King Biscuit CD) apparently was initially issued with incorrect liner notes, stating the concert was recorded in 1974. 10cc fan club [2] identifies other errors in the liner notes and concludes the concert was definitely recorded at Santa Monica Civic Center, Nov 75. Later reissues of In Concert correct the date. Grimhim 10:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creme's spelling

I have reverted all the changes that added the accent to Lol Creme's name. None of the 10cc or Godley and Creme records used this accent; presumably they would have done if he considered it part of his name Grimhim 04:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amazon Trust

In a quest to find a copy of "Run Baby Run" by Amazon Trust from 1970, I came across this article. This was a few weeks ago. The biography stated that "Run Baby Run" by Amazon Trust was Hot Legs under a different name. As I know this to be incorrect I edited the reference putting in the correct details i.e. This was a cover of the song by a completely different group, comprising Paul Martinelli, Barry Martinelli, Alfie Ansell and me, Don Gallacher. This was not an ego trip, but as Wikipedia is the leading online reference work, I presumed accuracy was important. Whilst still looking for that elusive single I realised that all reference to Amazon Trust has now been removed from the biography and of course all other reference sites that take their info from Wikipedia. I would be happy to discuss this with any 10cc fans out there, but most importantly I am desperate to get hold of a copy of the single (it is the drummer's retirement party this Saturday). Dongee2247 08:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Can't help you with the single, and this probably isn't the best place to seek help in that regard. I deleted the reference to Amazon Trust from the 10cc article because given the fact they're not related, it no longer needs to be included. It's a good point you make that other online reference websites all seem to pick up from Wiki: a Google search of "Amazon Trust" +10cc throw up dozens of websites, but all have identical wording that was evidently taken from Wikipedia. If you're positive that claim was wrong (it sounds like you're in a good position to know, and I can't find anything that contradicts you) then it would be interesting to see where the claim originated. Good luck with your search in the meantime. Grimhim 11:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The reference to Amazon Trust was added by an anonymous user on April 22, for what it's worth. Grimhim 11:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The 10cc fan page at http://tencc.fan-site.net/strawberry1.html would seem to be the initial source of the info.


[edit] Awards

An anonymous user has added an exhaustive list of awards (gold, silver, etc) for 10cc albums, presumably for sales in Britain, though this isn't stated specifically. My view is that this information belongs, if at all, on the Wiki entry for each album rather than being a chunky list after the discography on the main 10cc page. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums page and its archives contains no provision for such lists. I'll ask a question at the talk page for the project for any views. I'm inclined to simply delete the list. Comments? Grimhim 11:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nom

I speedy failed this article because it lacks references. Please see Wikipedia:What is a good article? for how to create a good article. Teemu08 01:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead section

I've responded to the lead section tag by reworking the intro. I think it was I who cut it back originally because it was getting a bit long, but I guess I overdid it. The recommendation is for an intro up to four paragraphs long that provides a "concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any." I think this complies with this now, but I'll keep nibbling away at it.

I'll hunt down more citations as well. Grimhim 06:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still active

Gouldman and his band are about to start touring the UK under the 10cc name. In some places they are billed as "Graham Gouldman's 10cc" [3] whereas elsewhere (e.g. [4] [5] ) there is no such qualifier.

This should really be clarified in the article text, as readers may wonder how a band that has been defunct since 1995 is able to play concerts in 2007. 217.155.20.163 19:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd think it's clear enough. Stewart is quoted as saying the band is finished as far as he's concerned; the intro and the "later work" section says that Gouldman continues to tour sporadically with a band billed as 100 featuring GG and Friends. I'll add Stewart's comment about the demise of the band to the intro, but otherwise readers should be able to discern that the band is no more, but Gouldman continues to trade on its name with a new touring band. Grimhim 21:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, I was actually at one of these gigs on Monday night - the tickets say 10cc, the band was announced as 10cc. The "Graham Gouldman and Friends" phrase may have been added to tour posters to placate Stewart, but it seems fairly clear that Gouldman has other ideas - he certainly made no effort to suggest that the band on stage was anything other than 10cc ("We did this", "We had this hit back in 1972", etc.) This may be the source of a dispute between Gouldman and Stewart but objectively I see no reason why the "Gouldman only" incarnation of the band is inherently less valid than the "Gouldman and Stewart but not Godley and Creme" one. It's the classic Ship of Theseus dilemma. 217.155.20.163 22:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm torn, I must confess. Maybe I'm a purist by insisting on some vestige of the original lineup to validate the band as the continuation of 10cc. On the other hand it's true Burgess began recording with Stewart and Gouldman in '77 on Deceptive Bends, and within another album or two many of the current "10cc" were in there too. Wiki editors seem split on this: bands such as Gerry and the Pacemakers, Herman's Hermits and The Platters are listed as bands in the past tense, even though incarnations of them still tour, albeit with one original member; The Troggs and The Searchers are referred to in the present tense for the very same reason. Anyone else have a preference? Grimhim 04:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Godleycreme.jpg

Image:Godleycreme.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Neanderthal3.jpg

Image:Neanderthal3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 10cc were never a "progressive rock band". Discuss

Check the description in the infobox. Progressive rock? I think not. According to the Wiki entry,

"Progressive rock bands pushed rock's technical and compositional boundaries by going beyond the standard rock or popular verse-chorus based song structures. Additionally, the arrangements often incorporate elements drawn from classical, jazz, and avant-garde music. Instrumental songs are more common, and songs with lyrics are sometimes conceptual, abstract, or based in fantasy. Progressive rock bands used concept albums that made unified statements, usually telling an epic story or tackling a grand overarching theme."

Sure, The Original Soundtrack was a concept album with some music that strayed from chorus-verse, but the existence of a concept album within their catalogue does not elevate them to prog-rock status (Hello, Sgt Pepper?). For the most part they were precisely commercial pop/rock. They were never in the realm of the prog-rock masters such as King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, The Moody Blues, Emerson, Lake and Palmer etc with their symphonic grandiosity. Nor, I think, did they ever claim to be. Any disagreement before I change the infobox? Grimhim (talk) 21:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Neanderthal3.jpg

Image:Neanderthal3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

fixed. Grimhim (talk) 01:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)