Talk:Ælle of Sussex

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

Little is known about the Saxon kings. This is complete and referenced enough to warrant a GA.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 16:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Promoted to GA. -- A-class review requested at WikiProject Biography to get final opinions on Aelle's legendary or historical status, while FA review is ongoing. -- Yamara 01:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
A-class review closed due to promotion to FA. A-class review archive -- Yamara 04:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sources, background

It is probable that Ælle’s entire career is fictional. Allegedly he arrived in three ships, with three sons, and fought three battles. That sounds more like a fairy tale than history. It annals are supposedly derived from Easter tables, but during the period to which they relate, the South Saxons were illiterate pagans, with no use for Easter tables, and no ability to write notes on them.

The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon legend to explain the acquisition of Sussex. An entirely different and equally implausible British (Welsh) myth was preserved by Nennius. He stated that Hengist treacherously seized the British king Vortigern and demanded the cession of Essex and Sussex as ransom for the king: “Hengistus sicut dixerat, vociferatus est et omnes seniores trecenti Guorthigirni regis iugulati sunt et ipse solus captus et catenatus est et regiones plurimas pro redemptione enimae suae illis tribuit, id est Estsaxum, Sutsaxum” (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/histbrit.html).

More probably, Saxon migrants had been colonizing the area for decades, and it was already heavily populated by Saxons before the supposed dates of Hengist and Ælle. In late Roman times the coast was already known as “the Saxon Shore”: “The Saxon Shore Forts were built by the Romans in the late 3rd century AD along the southeast coast of Britain to guard against increasing invasion and piracy by Germanic tribes including the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes” (http://www.athenapub.com/saxshor1.htm).

There are no easy answers to questions such as ‘Who invented the motor car’: it was a gradual process over decades. Likewise, the colonization of South East England by Germanic migrants was a gradual process. But there is a human need for simple answers to complex question. It is for this reason that myths arise. The British (Welsh) myths assume that the provinces were lost due to foul trickery by wicked rebel mercenaries, while the English myths revolve around heroic deeds by noble warriors. Slightly more relevant is that German king Fraomar and his people were settled in Britain by the Emperor Valentinian a century before the supposed arrival of Ælle: “Another point of view which has grown up from unfortunately reading only the Saxon Chronicle, is that Continental immigration began suddenly with the ‘three keels’. The evidence of tradition, and of tribal names, shows that there had been a continual flow of population into Britain before the Roman age. The Atrebates, the Belgae, the Parisii, the Brigantes, and others, are equally familiar names on both sides of the channel. Nor was this process stopped even by Rome: it was only regulated. Rome brought over masses of troops largely recruited from the Continent, even to the Huns on the Wall. Aurelius brought multitudes of the Marcomanni to settle in Britain. Similarly did Probus, with the colonies of Vandals and Burgundians. The Franks raided the south and occupied London under Allectus. Constantine was accompanied by the king of the Alamanni - and doubtless a good following - when he came over to Britain. Valentinian removed Fraomar and his tribe of Alamanni into Britain.” (http://www.sedwards.demon.co.uk/kafs/news/Tysilio%20Flinders%20Petrie-uncut.rtf).

[edit] NPOV

I am not a scholar of English history, but it is plain to see that this article is biased, e.g. "That sounds more like a fairy tale than history", "The story of Ælle is a heroic Anglo-Saxon myth", etc. Can anyone contribute to this article to give it a a more neutral stance? Matt 16:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Credulity

My additions to the article reflect current academic opinion: "The folkloric arrival in three ships, and the inclusion of people whose sole function seems to be to give their names to local settlements, suggest that these Chronicle entries should be treated as later fiction rather than recorded fact" [1].

Hovite 20:26, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Content vs. Language

I don't have a problem with the content of this page. Rather, I have a problem with the way that content is presented. Rather than saying "the story of Aelle is a myth", why not say "modern academic opinion is that Aelle's story is a fictional"? I think this article merely needs some revision to its language to give it a NPOV. JMHO Matt 17:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV cleanup

This article is listed on the NPOV backlog. My knowledge of old English history is not great, but I've tried to rearranged text and rewrite a few point-of-view sentences. (I might have destroyed the article for what I know). However, since there's no discussion suggesting a larger disagreement, the POV tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the disputed section with {{NPOV-section}} (or the article with {{NPOV}}) and post to Talk. Also consider improving the article yourself. -- Steve Hart 23:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


This section is for a discussion of the requested move from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex. See Talk:Æthelbald of Wessex#Requested move for a parallel recent discussion. Mike Christie (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are some more detailed notes. There are a couple of complications: not everything disambiguated at Aelle requires the ligature, so I think the right answer is two dabs, one for "Ælle", and one for "Aelle". The former would list only the Anglo-Saxons, and would include an informative link to the latter, which would continue to list everything it lists now, with the ligatures where appropriate. The related move listed in WP:RM is in line with this suggestion. In addition, "Ælla" should become a redirect to "Ælle"; these names may be slightly different but the possibility of confusion is so great that using a single dab page seems best. Finally, Ælle of Sussex is the most famous of these kings, so I would give "Ælle" primacy over "Ælla". Mike Christie (talk) 13:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No opinion on the move (some people dislike the ligatures, I believe that it's covered somewhere in WP:NC subpages, I can't find exactly where), but it's generally not a problem with the dab page: common practice is to redirect all common and similar spellings, (in this case, Ælla. Aella and Ælle) to one dab page, in this case, Aelle, especially in the cases when there are not many items to disambiguate. IOW, just as it is now. Duja► 15:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, you meant Talk:Æthelbald_of_Mercia#Requested_move? Well, wth, you can move it yourself: see WP:BRD :-) Duja► 15:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but the related dabs can't be moved except by an admin; plus since Talk:Æthelbald_of_Mercia#Requested_move wasn't unanimous I thought I'd put it up for discussion. Mike Christie (talk) 15:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Aelle of Sussex to Ælle of Sussex as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

And badly done, too—without fixing the sort keys so that it would sort properly in categories. Gene Nygaard (talk) 04:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wlencing

I'm removing the material about Wlencing being obviously not the son of Ælle; I can't find any source for this, though it does seem reasonable. Mike Christie (talk) 02:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Campbell and 28 year cycle

I have cut the para about Alastair Campbell's theory of a 28-year Easter table cycle, and the possibility that the scribe forgot to return to the story of Ælle. There was no source given, and I can't find any other references to this. Mike Christie (talk) 17:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

It's not really necessary to go into the details of the criteria here: This article passes all of them with flying colours. Obviously, it can't be expected to reach definite conclusions, but it does a nice job of setting forth what evidence there is. Good job! Adam Cuerden talk 17:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the positive comments. Mike Christie (talk) 19:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Digits in annals

I've reversed part of a change made to put "three" instead of "3" in the 477 annal. Swanton uses the digits to indicate that the original annal used Roman numerals rather than words for the numbers. This is a distinction worth preserving in general because certain kinds of scribal error are possible with digits but not with words. In this particular case there's no likelihood of scribal error, but since this is mostly quoting Swanton I think it should preserve his usage. Mike Christie (talk) 12:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further research

Here are some suggestions for further research, copied in from the FAC discussion. These are from Warofdreams.

  1. Several websites, and our own article on the Battle of Mons Badonicus, claim that Ælle may have led the Saxons there. This is repeatedly sourced to recent scholars. Could we find out whose theory it is, and then mention it in the text?
    The only websites listed in that article that refers to the claim that Ælle led the Saxons is this one. I took a look around and it says that it's based on this book, which I don't have. Reading the reviews at Amazon, it appears to be a good faith attempt to review the archaeological data, though there are also some negative comments about speculation there. I don't know anything about the authors or how well-accepted this suggestion is. (It sounds plausible to me, but it also sounds like guesswork.) I think the best thing is to put a note on the talk page saying that it would be good to add a note to this effect if it can be sourced to a scholarly suggestion rather than just speculation. The Phillips/Keatman book might be good enough, if they hold academic positions; I just don't know about them. Mike Christie (talk) 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  2. Is "Mearcred's Burn" the actual text in the translation of the Chronicle used? "Mearcred's Creek" appears widely online, while "Mearcred's Bourne" is a more likely form for south eastern England. Google Books turns up an early C20 study which mentions lukewarmly a theory that it is the Battle Bourne in Windsor Great Park - perhaps this might be worth mentioning.
    Yes, Swanton gives it as "Mearcred's Burn". The underlying original OE text is "Mearcrædes burnan" in the A text, "Mearcredes burnan" in the E text, again according to Swanton. Swanton simply says it's "unidentified". The book you link to is interesting; I didn't know anything about this author, but he does appear to have academic credentials. I found this link which describes him as having a "vivid imagination" and being a "picturesque historian"; this gives me enough pause to want to see another opinion on the location of Mearcred's burn before adding his suggestion, particularly since Swanton is so unequivocal. I think again that the best thing is to note this on the talk page for further research. Mike Christie (talk) 20:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Another discussion from the FAC nom relates to the suggestion that Aelle led the Saxon forces at Mons Badonicus. Here's the comment from Warofdreams:

On Mons Badonicus, I suspect that there is a stronger reference than the apparently rather imaginative Phillips and Keatman. In the 1972 British Battlefields, Philip Warner writes that the Saxon force "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle but this can hardly have been the Aelle who had first appeared in 477" [because he reasons the date of the battle as 516]. By the 2004 Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare, we have "It has been thought possible the English leader was Aelle of Sussex"; it seems to me that there is enough discussion of this to merit a mention in the article, although rather a cautious one. Lastly, I've added the picture I mentioned, thinking that it is a reasonably notable work, but I'd be happy to discuss its inclusion further on the article talk page.

In response: yes, I think this could be added. I don't have the Companion to Medieval Warfare, but perhaps you can add a note to this effect and cite that; that's strong enough a source, I think. I also find it interesting that Warner says "was reputed to have been led by one Aelle"; there is clearly some source he is referring to that is early enough to be described using "reputed" rather than "suggested". I'd like to know what that source is, and mention it here. Mike Christie (talk) 02:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I've finally added a rather cautious note. If the possible source you mention turns up, those details should definitely be added. Warofdreams talk 03:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

I mostly find the guides to pronunciation a bit redundant (Manchester, anyone?) but I think an 'IPA' would be helpful here. Alley? Ella? Ely? Eel? Mr Stephen (talk) 20:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but I've posted a question to someone who may know. Mike Christie (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The Æ is the Anglo-Saxon ash, and it stands for the English vowel sound found in "bat," "fat," "hat," and "cat." This vowel is not the same as the α found in the Continental /a/. The double consonants indicate that it's a short vowel (not a big deal for us, here), and the terminal e was probably pronounced. æl-le is probably accurate. Midlands dialects would have affected the pronunciation, but also, therefore, the spelling. I.e. there wasn't the problem then, as now, of spelling words all one way and pronouncing them any which way: the spelling would have been pretty reflective of the pronunciation. That's my surmise, anyway. Geogre (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I could do the IPA transcription if desired, but would need clarification of the /e/ sound. What words in standard British English would the /le/ rhyme with? Or is original research, if we can't find a source for the pronunciation? --Slp1 (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks; it would be great to get the transcription done. Per Geogre on his talk page: "take the a sound in "ash" and then add "lluh."" Does that suffice? As for the original research, I think this is OK -- I don't think this is controversial, just not easy for a non-specialist. Geogre has some academic background in this area so I am comfortable with it -- up to you if you want to ping Geogre and ask if there are references. Mike Christie (talk) 02:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, as you can see I've done the IPA , assuming that the stress is on the first syllable and that the second vowel is a schwa, so that the name rhymes with Bala, the town in Wales. If this isn't right, please let me know. Slp1 (talk) 02:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
That looks right to me. Thank you for the help! Mike Christie (talk) 02:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] British?

Why not the Britons? "British" is interpreted by most people to mean "during the time of Great Britain". "Britons" or "early Britons" would better suggest the time period of Aelle. --69.236.163.52 (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reorder sections

I think it would be useful to reorder the sections in this article. Move the Reign section to be between Historical Context and Early Sources.

I think it makes more sense to present the "facts" of the man first, and then get deeper into the discussion of his actual existence, or lack thereof.

What are other opinions?

EAKugler (talk) 22:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested to hear other opinions, but I like it the way it is -- I think the "reign" section is where we get to assemble the information discussed in the first part of the article into a coherent, if speculative, narrative. Mike Christie (talk) 02:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Whereas, from a usability standpoint, I think it would be much more useful to know what the guy is supposed to have done, as opposed to focusing so much on whether he actually existed. I think the way this site is presented, it puts too much emphasis on the lack of information we have on that time period. EAKugler (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] it cannot be said with certainty that Ælle existed

This hints at what (for me at least) could be a fascinating question: how do historians say "with certainty" that anyone existed? I suppose there is some threshold of contemporary documents that make it highly probable the person actually lived and did what was claimed, but even today under the glare of multiple network cameras the media sometimes gets it wrong.

Anyway, if someone knowledgeable about this topic could find a way to link to an article on historical "certainty" and how it is determined, it might be helpful. Thanks. 70.162.156.229 (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It might be useful to link to historical method to clarify. EAKugler (talk) 00:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dumnonia and Cornwall

Given that the Dumnonia article states that it's unknown whether Cornwall was ever even part of Dumnonia, would it be an idea to say something like "Dumnonia (modern Devon)", rather than "Dumnonia (modern Cornwall)"? Carre (talk) 13:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to dig out the specific references I used, but I'm pretty sure that it's not controversial to say Cornwall was part of Dumnonia. If the Dumnonia article had a citation for that statement I could check that but as it is I think it's just as likely the Dumnonia article will change that assertion when someone gets around to expanding it and adding citations. Mike Christie (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Mike; I think it'd be worth it – take a look at the map in Cerdic of Wessex, for example. I am far from knowledgeable about this period though, so shall leave it in your capable hands. Carre (talk) 14:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)