Talk:List of deaths on eight-thousanders

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This list is not at all complete, nor does it provide any sources. Excluding the current season, there have been 203 and 64 deaths on Everest and K2 respectively. Viewfinder 08:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it doesn't list any sources. I am just starting this page and I am using a variety of Web sources, but I haven't yet had time to fill them in. Feel free to help! Greg Kuperberg 09:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I cannot really help as I am not an authority on this subject, and the main source that I am aware of is copyrighted. Please state your sources immediately, and stop expanding this article further until you have done so. If you do not do this, we cannot verify that your information is correct and copyright clean. Viewfinder 16:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I added some sources for the old entries and I will add sources for my own new entries. But it's not true that you can't help. I am not an authority either. All you have to do to help is to Google the names on the page, say together with the year and the name of the mountain. That would be more constructive than just making demands. Greg Kuperberg 16:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Greg, thanks for starting this list, I think it will become a very useful page. Viewfinder, you are correct that sources are crucial, but I do think your tone was somewhat peremptory. I'll see if I have any time to contribute to this list myself. -- Spireguy 20:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to censure this list and I am sorry if I gave that impression. Infact, if it were all up to me the information would all be in the public domain. But it is not. This sort of thing should not be added to wikipedia without sources. If the climber has a wikipedia bio, and the information is in that bio, then a wikilink is adequate, but otherwise names should not be added to the page unless the source of the name is also added on the page at the same time, or the source is already listed as a general source in a reference section. Viewfinder 21:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that the copying of names off Everest fatalities and Everest fatalities is OK? I may be wrong, but I am inclined to doubt it. Viewfinder 22:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If I copied a substantial part of the page from those two links, then I agree that it would be dubious with regard to copyright. But that isn't what I did. In fact, I only found those pages after many rounds of searches. Then I considered how those pages could be used defensibly. It seems to me that if you see a name on one of those lists, but then find and cite independent verification, then that has to be legitimate. Otherwise simply reading the copyrighted list would forever "taint" your work and prevent you from helping Wikipedia.

In fact, compiled lists are a well-known problem area in copyright law. The rules don't completely make sense, and probably they can't. Whoever made these two external list web pages probably wasn't nearly as careful about copyright as I am being. I would not be surprised if they were lifted from the Himalayan Database, edited by Elizabeth Hawley. We have to be free to duplicate her work, line by line, from online news sources; otherwise, again, the mere existence of her list would prevent us from making a good page. But it may be possible to get data from her with explicit approval; and it could save a lot of time. Greg Kuperberg 23:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Also: I understand the concern about wholesale plagiariasm in Wikipedia. It happens. However, there are reasons to trust me that I didn't plagiarize: I'm not anonymous, and I have added a lot of citations already. In this case, I don't see what's so terrible about back-filling citations. Most of the initial data came from Wikipedia pages that don't have citations themselves, you know. Greg Kuperberg 23:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, if noone else objects then neither will I. But you should ensure that you cite the independent verification, and add it at the same time as the name. Viewfinder 23:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

We will never do away with concerns about copyright infringement on Wikipedia. If we want to be extremely anal, we would have to delete upwards of three quarters of the articles in Wikipedia. I have absolutely no problem with how this page is coming together. QuinnHK 04:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think, the "Laura Newman" entry in the list of Everest deaths is a fake, since searching for the name and "Everest" in Google lists nothing. The same IP added "Andy Lau" (a chinese pop artist) a few hours earlier, which was reverted later. --87.177.252.245 (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable entries only please

Longstanding WP practices (spelled out at WP:BIO, WP:MOSLIST and numerous other places) limit list entries to notable entries only; accordingly I am going to begin the process of removing the non-notable names from the list.

Anyone considering adding a person to this list should keep in mind the following from the Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) guideline:

"Ideally each entry on the list should have a Wikipedia article but this is not required if it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future."

To test the reasonableness of your expectations, you may want to create the article on the person first and then add them to this list. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a draconian reading of the Wikipedia notability policy. Only a few hundred people have died climbing the eight-thousanders, and they are all notable precisely for that reason. Every time that someone dies on Mount Everest or the others, it's an interesting story. You have wiped out half of the interest in this page in order to adhere to the letter more than the spirit of the rules. Greg Kuperberg 00:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Since we disagree, would you like me to get broader input to our issue on the talk page for WP:BIO? UnitedStatesian 04:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Greg that removing the entries is too strict a reading of the guideline. Compare, for example, the List of minor characters in Dilbert (mentioned at Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)). How are those more notable than the people who died on Eight-thousanders? As to each individual's notability, almost every fatality on these peaks is noted in at least the American Alpine Journal, and almost always in other climbing journals and other sources. Equally important, the list of those who died on each peak is relevant information about that peak; it just happens to be collected here as well for convenience. I really think that this is a list where completeness (to the extent possible) is more reasonable than pruning for maximum notability.

I would be interested to hear other input from WP:BIO. -- Spireguy (talk) 19:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

We still need to come to a consensus on this issue. (I note that UnitedStatesian recently edited again on the basis of having only notable entries.) Here's a proposal: instead of just a bare list, perhaps what is needed is an article on "Deaths on eight-thousanders", with some overview and analysis, and (hopefully, eventually) complete lists. In that context, a complete list for each peak would be useful, e.g. one could perhaps look at the list for a certain peak and see if anyone from a particular country had died on that peak. Comments? -- Spireguy (talk) 14:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

My big issue is with verifiablity, a Wikipedia policy. There are sources on this page for the Everest deaths. If someone adds a blue link in one of the other mountains, I can go to the article and presumably get the source of their death. But a red link, with no sources? If someone adds Joe Mountaineer, and the link is unsourced and red? How can I know where that person died, that that person died, or that they even existed? This verifiablity issue is why I started an essay encouraging editors to Write the Article First. Comments welcome, here or there. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I think I read SG's comment as also suggesting expanding the information for each person on this list, like adding their nationality; I agree with any such expansion/ improvement; a sortable table would be a good method for soing so. UnitedStatesian (talk) 05:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)